Vegan Bodybuilding & Fitness

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 Post subject: Re: mega mass oatmeal
PostPosted: Fri Jul 25, 2008 7:42 am 
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Elephant
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I remember having a zero gram fat diet for 2 weeks last summer, it was a protein fasting, with only protein shakes and low sugar. Because there was no fats at all, after about 12 days, all my skin all over my body why so dry that it was falling, especially on my legs. I stopped after losing 14 pounds in 14 days.
I'm just saying, let's not do war against fats. We can surely eliminate totally oils from our diet, but eating some walnuts, or some hemp containing healthy fats, and 1 avocado each day or 2 is really acceptable.

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 Post subject: Re: mega mass oatmeal
PostPosted: Fri Jul 25, 2008 9:53 am 
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veganmaster wrote:

"If you are on a very low fat diet, then you risk fatty acids deficiencies - both essential and non-essential."

Sorry but this is simply not supported via the evidence - where are all these people with fatty acid deficiency? Because you won't find them in the scientific literature, despite what they teach at universities. Essential fat requirement is tiny, and easily met by whole plant foods without added oil, please read this:
http://www.drmcdougall.com/misc/2007nl/aug/oils.htm


Veganmaster, I detect an "anti-academia" attitude in a lot of your posts. You sometimes refer to "most scientists" or "what they teach at universities" the way that some leftists talk about "the man" - as though you're referring to an intangible, evil force that permeates the world and poisons all it touches.

Please try to keep your perspective - I don't think you know firsthand what they teach at universities regarding metabolism and nutrition, because you never had a formal education in it. You also talk about what people will or will not find if they search "the scientific literature", as though you have an archival knowledge of it. The vast majority of journals out there are not open-access, so you couldn't be reading over 95% of the articles being published every month on these subjects without subscriptions or access via a university subscription, even if you had time to read them all (the volume of research being published every month is too much for any one person to keep up on - that's why researchers end up specializing in one particular area...it's the only way to stay current and relevant). You also quote and reference Dr. McDougall constantly - he runs a business, and has books, DVDs, etc to sell, so realize the inherent danger in relying on such sources of information. It's not unlike referencing Pfizer in a discussion of whether or not certain medications are beneficial.

You put a lot of work and thought into nutrition - and this is not a personal attack. It's not like I know everything on these subjects, either. But I hope you realize the way you write with authority about academia (both about the attitudes of most scientists and about what you have learned) despite having never been immersed in that environment or having had access to most of the tools and information that others, whom you clearly have strong opinions about, have.


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 Post subject: Re: mega mass oatmeal
PostPosted: Fri Jul 25, 2008 10:51 am 
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Elephant
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the only thing that bugs me about VeganMaster posts is that he always quote that same 2 or 3 studies about the importance of low-fat diets. I think I may have felt on the same study at least 30 times. As if this study is supposed to be the Supreme Answer to All the Mysteries in the Universe.
He said at least a dozen times :"the fat you eat is the fat you wear". Not true: I knew a guy who was a compulsive eater, eating all day because of stress -- foods like chips, chocolate, hot-dogs, pizza, etc -- and he didn't have a single atom of fat, because of his fast metabolism burning every calorie, and it's the samething for most people with ectomorph bodytype.


Anyway, I'm not attacking you or your posts, they don't really bother me, I just stopped reading them that's all, because I know it's gonna be the same low-fat thing.
My posts aren't better, I've been told they're "outrageous", with no scientific background, that they're just abherrant rants with controversial ideas, etc.

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 Post subject: Re: mega mass oatmeal
PostPosted: Fri Jul 25, 2008 6:52 pm 
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I have come across many studies beyond what veganmaster has cited supporting what he says on at least carbohydrate overfeeding, so there is most certainly no lack of evidence on at least that aspect of what he says.

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 Post subject: Re: mega mass oatmeal
PostPosted: Fri Jul 25, 2008 8:33 pm 
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So basically you guys are saying that oatmeal will help me put on weight? I am desperate! :?:


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 Post subject: Re: mega mass oatmeal
PostPosted: Fri Jul 25, 2008 8:43 pm 
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bwi wrote:
So basically you guys are saying that oatmeal will help me put on weight? I am desperate! :?:


Sure. Steel cut oats will do the best job. Make sure to add plenty of dried fruit, nuts and seeds for the greatest gain.

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 Post subject: Re: mega mass oatmeal
PostPosted: Mon Jul 28, 2008 5:58 am 
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I'm Your Man wrote:
the only thing that bugs me about VeganMaster posts is that he always quote that same 2 or 3 studies about the importance of low-fat diets. I think I may have felt on the same study at least 30 times. As if this study is supposed to be the Supreme Answer to All the Mysteries in the Universe.
He said at least a dozen times :"the fat you eat is the fat you wear". Not true: I knew a guy who was a compulsive eater, eating all day because of stress -- foods like chips, chocolate, hot-dogs, pizza, etc -- and he didn't have a single atom of fat, because of his fast metabolism burning every calorie, and it's the samething for most people with ectomorph bodytype.


Anyway, I'm not attacking you or your posts, they don't really bother me, I just stopped reading them that's all, because I know it's gonna be the same low-fat thing.
My posts aren't better, I've been told they're "outrageous", with no scientific background, that they're just abherrant rants with controversial ideas, etc.


i often wonder, and this may be a good poll to run, do certain forum members not read certain other members posts because of reasons like the above (which is their personal freedom to do so) but is unfortunate because every once in a while somebody may change their tune or maybe within the "same thing" or ranting and raving... may lie a jewel of an idea. let us not forget we are dynamic not static beings!

furthermore, how many members just post their reply to original thread starter post and not even read any of the other posts?

anyway, i don't want to go too far off topic here... so back to oats: sometimes i throw them into shakes to bump up their fiber.

i also wonder rolled oats vs steel cut, what are the benefits?

last but not least: soaked and sprouted, soaked and cooked, cooked from dry, or blended from dry?

i usually do the latter 2 but am interested in the soaking approach in general and looking forward to try at some time...


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 Post subject: Re: mega mass oatmeal
PostPosted: Mon Jul 28, 2008 6:07 am 
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cubby2112 wrote:
I have come across many studies beyond what veganmaster has cited supporting what he says on at least carbohydrate overfeeding, so there is most certainly no lack of evidence on at least that aspect of what he says.


i often wonder with studies, who is doing them and what their "agenda" is. for example, soy: soy manufacturers will look at results one way including favorable results and not disclosing unfavorable while beef or dairy producers will flip the script. it's hard to find unbiased scientific holistic studies is what i am saying.

and regarding carb feeding or any dietary style for that matter i wonder if the most important variable that is the trump card is the person and their individuality: in this case, metabolism, or in other cases, food allergies, intolerance or sensitivity.


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 Post subject: Re: mega mass oatmeal
PostPosted: Mon Jul 28, 2008 6:24 am 
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Elephant
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paulcats02 wrote:

i often wonder, and this may be a good poll to run, do certain forum members not read certain other members posts because of reasons like the above (which is their personal freedom to do so) but is unfortunate because every once in a while somebody may change their tune or maybe within the "same thing" or ranting and raving... may lie a jewel of an idea. let us not forget we are dynamic not static beings!

Yes it could make an interesting poll. I agree, people are (or can, they shoulb be) dynamic, not static beings, and that's what I encourage. To learn, change, evoluate, progress, experiment, etc. But when someone studies a particular subject, that becomes a passion for a certain period of time (weeks, months, years) and it is normal it takes all it's time, unfortunately at the expense of other interests that are being put aside. Nothing wrong about that. Sometimes this passion is even transmitted to others (I stopped reading all posts about the hi-cho, lo-fat diet, but I must admit I was intrigued enough to look ito it further now).
paulcats02 wrote:
anyway, i don't want to go too far off topic here... so back to oats: sometimes i throw them into shakes to bump up their fiber.

i also wonder rolled oats vs steel cut, what are the benefits?

last but not least: soaked and sprouted, soaked and cooked, cooked from dry, or blended from dry?

i usually do the latter 2 but am interested in the soaking approach in general and looking forward to try at some time...
Perhaps soaking have some benefits (like less time required for cooking, like for rice) but as for sprouting, we can only sprout living/raw foods, and while it is possible that oat can be raw, it is very hard to find in a food store. For your questions about dry, I don't think it's bad to eat dry oat, because in a certain way it's already been kind of semi-cooked, but it's kind of like eating flour, the digestion is easier if you cook it, I think.

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 Post subject: Re: mega mass oatmeal
PostPosted: Mon Jul 28, 2008 11:03 am 
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Elephant

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jaleel wrote:
I'm pretty sure steel cut oats are lower than rolled oats on the GI index.


yeah but not on the glycemic index index index

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 Post subject: Re: mega mass oatmeal
PostPosted: Mon Jul 28, 2008 11:32 am 
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Elephant
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xjohanx wrote:
jaleel wrote:
I'm pretty sure steel cut oats are lower than rolled oats on the GI index.


yeah but not on the glycemic index index index
I like to go to the ATM machine before going to buy steel cut oats, lol

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 Post subject: Re: mega mass oatmeal
PostPosted: Mon Jul 28, 2008 12:31 pm 
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I'm Your Man wrote:
xjohanx wrote:

yeah but not on the glycemic index index index
I like to go to the ATM machine before going to buy steel cut oats, lol


Just don't let someone see your PIN number while at that ATM machine thinking about your GI index!


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 Post subject: Re: mega mass oatmeal
PostPosted: Mon Jul 28, 2008 1:19 pm 
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@veganmaster:
Are you trying to make the point that nuts and seeds are bad for ones health?

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 Post subject: Re: mega mass oatmeal
PostPosted: Mon Jul 28, 2008 4:16 pm 
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offense74 wrote:
@veganmaster:
Are you trying to make the point that nuts and seeds are bad for ones health?


I don't think he is making the point that they are bad for one's health, but from what he has studied, he has concluded that the best way to gain muscle without gaining much fat is to go high carb, low fat. There is plenty of evidence that healthy fats allow the human body to preserve protein, but there could possibly be a higher risk of putting on more fat and less muscle with a higher fat content. I am not a complete believer, but am merely considering this option, as I do all options before making my decision on whether or not they are valid.

On the fats and health thing, though, most studies which add fat into people's diets in the form of nuts, avocados or maybe even olive oil generally put them in place of refined starches or sugars. The increased health of subjects doesn't necessarily show that those items are a good addition to any diet, just that they are healthier than the refined, processed items they replaced. Comparing the results of the McDougall and Fuhrman diet, it is apparent that they are quite equal in lowering cholesterol, blood pressure, etc. However, Furhman's diet comes out ahead in the weight loss department since he recommends such high levels of vegetables and people are left with little room in their stomachs for much else. McDougall's diet, though, tends to help people's triglyceride levels more because it doesn't stress fruit as much.

In the end, they are quite close in effectiveness and it seems the best plan to choose the one which fits your lifestyle/tastes/goals/sensitivities the best. There are of course other variations of these types of diet, but those are the two I am most familiar with.

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The metric system is socialized measurment. If you implement it it will only be a matter of time before your grandma will stand in front of a death panel being forced to deny the existance of baby Jesus.

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 Post subject: Re: mega mass oatmeal
PostPosted: Mon Jul 28, 2008 5:21 pm 
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Elephant
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I am cutting, and I still have my oatmeal in the morning. I haven't gone hardcore yet, so I still put a little agave nectar in it to get it down. I put brown rice protein powder, spirulina, and Vega's EFA oil (1 tablespoon) in it. It keeps me full while working out an hour later.

About studies and scientists. We are learning things all the time. I say take in the info, and then try it for yourself. Like the guy who said he went on a diet without any oil and his skin dried out after awhile. I limit my oil intake just for cutting and to get my bodyfat down, but I do not cut it out completely. Because I too cut out oil for two weeks and was sick!!!!

What is also amazing is that scientists think they know what they are talking about, and have evidence to support it, but it is still theories, and are always being tested. A good theory is one that stays around and around and passes the tests all the time. Thus, the world is still :laughing5: a sphere!


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