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PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2008 7:01 pm 
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Lets just end it here. You go veganize your animals and I will go to the park so my dog can go hunt some pigeons for dinner...
Either way my dog is stacked( as seen below)




FTW.............................. asshole :lol:

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Last edited by GoldenRatio on Thu Feb 21, 2008 7:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2008 7:02 pm 
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GoldenRatio wrote:
xjohanx wrote:
GoldenRatio wrote:
I dont think this is very ethically responsible... Chosing to be vegan your self is one thing but imposing that on an animal is another.I have a dachshund myself.
To each his own...


WHAT?? this statement is so out of bounds.
you are imposing a meat diet on your dog as much as he is imposing a vegan one on his.
if anyone you are in lack of ethical responsibility.


Dogs are just domesticated wolves (oversimplification but you get the point), Wolves thrive on hunting other animals for MEAT. Now if certain industry practices dont let you sleep at night, change to an organic or freerange dog/cat food company, whatever suits you. BUT where do you draw the line, are you gonna veganize lions, tigers and bears(ohh my)? Dont mess with natural processes. Veganizing a dog or cat is just as bad as their domestication thousands of years ago, Its not natural.

Then again because of their domestication maybe its not such a necessity b/c of their much less active and less demanding lives.

either way the human interference with natural processes is not necessarly correct even when backed by the best intentions


[/quote]

A majority of people say its natural for humans to eat meat too. What makes it natural for animals to eat meat? Could it be possible that animals, like humans, strayed from original plant eating diets due to climactic change, extinction, starvation, etc? I do believe there are a FEW animals that do well on a carnivorous diet, but nobody really knows what "natural" is? Could this particular interference, of a vegan diet, be greatly beneficial for them?

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2008 7:09 pm 
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As a guy who sells vegan cat and dog food, here's the perspective that I take on the issue:

It is an individual choice, and I neither condemn those that continue to feed meat to their cats and dogs, nor do I believe it is the "only way" that some people tend to think because it's an absurd, outdated notion that still clings to life through ignorance. There have been THOUSANDS of healthy, happy vegan cats and dogs out there over the past few decades, so anyone who wants to say that it isn't healthy is misinformed. If a quality food is used (NEVER try to make your own vegan food from scratch, particualrly for cats, unless your plan is to kill them slowly!) that contains all the essential nutrients and amino acids, then you have no worries going with a vegan food.

Unless you're turning your cat or dog loose to hunt their own food, you're giving them something unnatural, so let's not kid ourselves that a fancy $4 can of free-range meat based dog or cat food is the same thing they'd eat in the wild. When you're giving your dog a bowl of renderings and fillers that's formed into kibble or a meaty sludge, that's not any more natural of a diet than one based on vegan foods. That's just the way things are - I get a LOT of people who write us to antagonize the vegan perspective for foods, but come on, since when does a dog go out and naturally eat venison? Or kill a cow for beef? When does a cat catch a fish or eat a duck in nature? When you open a can of cat food and find nothing but a whole dead squirrel inside, then you'll finally have your "natural" option, but let's not kid ourselves that we're keeping close to nature when we feed our companion animals. Dogs aren't completely carnivorous, they're scavengers and are very good at existing well on whatever they come across that seems like it's good to eat. Ever been to a country like Jamaica where wild dogs just roam around freely? They're not going home to have someone feed them at night - they pick through trash, eat carcasses, leftover vegetables discarded by vendors, or whatever else they find when they're hungry. Cats don't NEED MEAT, they NEED TAURINE and ARACHADONIC ACID, which is normally in meat but can be created synthetically, as is used in the products we carry. If you can keep an open mind to that and get past the B.S. that gets perpetuated so often, you can start to see how a vegan diet for animals is not necessarily any less healthy or any more dangerous than standard rendering-based foods.

Cats and dogs are like people, though - some will absolutely thrive on a vegan diet (we've had quite a few people tell us how their animal's health improved considerably after the changeover), and we've had people say that their animals didn't take well and they went back to a meat-based diet. Every creature is its own entity, and much like how some people go vegan and feel great, others have a more difficult time because they haven't figured out how to balance things adequately for proper nutrition. Choosing to have a cat or dog go vegan isn't something to take lightly, and should only be done with research and plenty of consideration, not to mention having your veterinarian follow the animal's health to ensure that things are going well. It is something that needs to be done responsibly, as the health of the animal comes first and foremost - anything done without that in consideration is cruelty, particuarly anyone who forces a diet on an animal that just can't seem to adapt to it in a healthy manner.

What people also need to consider is that feeding a cat or dog a vegan diet isn't all-or-nothing. You CAN give a cat or dog a 25%, 50% or 75% vegan diet and still make a difference. Even a 50% reduction allows some people to feel that their animal can have balanced nutrition and still work to reduce suffering through decreasing their purchase of animal by-product based foods. It's much like with people - if you found NO way to feel good on a completely vegan diet (hypothetically speaking, of course) but found that eating vegan for 80% of your diet worked perfectly, why would you not consider being 80% vegan? It's not a black-and-white issue - every little bit helps when vegan food is put in place of meat-based animal foods, even if it's just a little bit mixed in with the gross stuff.

I can rant about this stuff all day, but I'll end it here. Remember, it wasn't that long ago that people in general thought that a vegan diet for humans was ludicrous and would lead to a quick death. Why do so many think that animals are so different and can't go vegan as well?

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2008 7:10 pm 
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BodhiDave85 wrote:
GoldenRatio wrote:
xjohanx wrote:
GoldenRatio wrote:
I dont think this is very ethically responsible... Chosing to be vegan your self is one thing but imposing that on an animal is another.I have a dachshund myself.
To each his own...


WHAT?? this statement is so out of bounds.
you are imposing a meat diet on your dog as much as he is imposing a vegan one on his.
if anyone you are in lack of ethical responsibility.


Dogs are just domesticated wolves (oversimplification but you get the point), Wolves thrive on hunting other animals for MEAT. Now if certain industry practices dont let you sleep at night, change to an organic or freerange dog/cat food company, whatever suits you. BUT where do you draw the line, are you gonna veganize lions, tigers and bears(ohh my)? Dont mess with natural processes. Veganizing a dog or cat is just as bad as their domestication thousands of years ago, Its not natural.

Then again because of their domestication maybe its not such a necessity b/c of their much less active and less demanding lives.

either way the human interference with natural processes is not necessarly correct even when backed by the best intentions




A majority of people say its natural for humans to eat meat too. What makes it natural for animals to eat meat? Could it be possible that animals, like humans, strayed from original plant eating diets due to climactic change, extinction, starvation, etc? I do believe there are a FEW animals that do well on a carnivorous diet, but nobody really knows what "natural" is? Could this particular interference, of a vegan diet, be greatly beneficial for them?[/quote]

ah.... finally some more substancial arguments...
Ok, I do think that the possibility of a vegan diet for a highly domesticated animal might be benificial. however, if benificial this probably will varies greatly with breed.

As soon as man started farming, revolving crops and later irrigating the need to eat meat was no longer a necessity rather a craving.

As to what is natural, well thats simple, natural is what occurs in under regular circumstances in nature. ie, bears eat fish as long as they are available etc

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2008 7:17 pm 
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VeganEssentials wrote:
As a guy who sells vegan cat and dog food, here's the perspective that I take on the issue:

It is an individual choice, and I neither condemn those that continue to feed meat to their cats and dogs, nor do I believe it is the "only way" that some people tend to think because it's an absurd, outdated notion that still clings to life through ignorance. There have been THOUSANDS of healthy, happy vegan cats and dogs out there over the past few decades, so anyone who wants to say that it isn't healthy is misinformed. If a quality food is used (NEVER try to make your own vegan food from scratch, particualrly for cats, unless your plan is to kill them slowly!) that contains all the essential nutrients and amino acids, then you have no worries going with a vegan food.

Unless you're turning your cat or dog loose to hunt their own food, you're giving them something unnatural, so let's not kid ourselves that a fancy $4 can of free-range meat based dog or cat food is the same thing they'd eat in the wild. When you're giving your dog a bowl of renderings and fillers that's formed into kibble or a meaty sludge, that's not any more natural of a diet than one based on vegan foods. That's just the way things are - I get a LOT of people who write us to antagonize the vegan perspective for foods, but come on, since when does a dog go out and naturally eat venison? Or kill a cow for beef? When does a cat catch a fish or eat a duck in nature? When you open a can of cat food and find nothing but a whole dead squirrel inside, then you'll finally have your "natural" option, but let's not kid ourselves that we're keeping close to nature when we feed our companion animals. Dogs aren't completely carnivorous, they're scavengers and are very good at existing well on whatever they come across that seems like it's good to eat. Ever been to a country like Jamaica where wild dogs just roam around freely? They're not going home to have someone feed them at night - they pick through trash, eat carcasses, leftover vegetables discarded by vendors, or whatever else they find when they're hungry. Cats don't NEED MEAT, they NEED TAURINE and ARACHADONIC ACID, which is normally in meat but can be created synthetically, as is used in the products we carry. If you can keep an open mind to that and get past the B.S. that gets perpetuated so often, you can start to see how a vegan diet for animals is not necessarily any less healthy or any more dangerous than standard rendering-based foods.

Cats and dogs are like people, though - some will absolutely thrive on a vegan diet (we've had quite a few people tell us how their animal's health improved considerably after the changeover), and we've had people say that their animals didn't take well and they went back to a meat-based diet. Every creature is its own entity, and much like how some people go vegan and feel great, others have a more difficult time because they haven't figured out how to balance things adequately for proper nutrition. Choosing to have a cat or dog go vegan isn't something to take lightly, and should only be done with research and plenty of consideration, not to mention having your veterinarian follow the animal's health to ensure that things are going well. It is something that needs to be done responsibly, as the health of the animal comes first and foremost - anything done without that in consideration is cruelty, particuarly anyone who forces a diet on an animal that just can't seem to adapt to it in a healthy manner.

What people also need to consider is that feeding a cat or dog a vegan diet isn't all-or-nothing. You CAN give a cat or dog a 25%, 50% or 75% vegan diet and still make a difference. Even a 50% reduction allows some people to feel that their animal can have balanced nutrition and still work to reduce suffering through decreasing their purchase of animal by-product based foods. It's much like with people - if you found NO way to feel good on a completely vegan diet (hypothetically speaking, of course) but found that eating vegan for 80% of your diet worked perfectly, why would you not consider being 80% vegan? It's not a black-and-white issue - every little bit helps when vegan food is put in place of meat-based animal foods, even if it's just a little bit mixed in with the gross stuff.

I can rant about this stuff all day, but I'll end it here. Remember, it wasn't that long ago that people in general thought that a vegan diet for humans was ludicrous and would lead to a quick death. Why do so many think that animals are so different and can't go vegan as well?


Yes, Yes and Yes... I find your dissertation a pleasure to read as well as very informative. Your pointing out the ambiguity of the subject definetly makes your argument a very credible one... you may have even swayed my opinion a little bit, Good job

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2008 7:19 pm 
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But WHAT IF, those bears eating fish, are just mimicking generations of bears before them with no clue why they are doing it besides the fact that they like the taste of fish, or its easy. I know animals arent equiped with the same brains as us, so its easy for us to think whatever an animal does is pure instinct. I dont even know if humans should be vegan, so I dont think I can ever convince you that animals should be either, but it works for animals!

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2008 7:22 pm 
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Great post, VeganEssentials!

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2008 7:27 pm 
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veganessentials: i am acctually standing in my dorm room totally alone and applauding your post. damn i wish i was that good with words

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2008 7:36 pm 
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BodhiDave85 wrote:
But WHAT IF, those bears eating fish, are just mimicking generations of bears before them with no clue why they are doing it besides the fact that they like the taste of fish, or its easy. I know animals arent equiped with the same brains as us, so its easy for us to think whatever an animal does is pure instinct. I dont even know if humans should be vegan, so I dont think I can ever convince you that animals should be either, but it works for animals!


Bears do it b/c it works, if it didnt theyd be extinct or there would be another variety that doesnt eat fish( yogi bear?).
Should humans be vegan? I can say 99.9% yes, the amount of of resources that are wasted on rasing animals for slaughter is ridiculous + ethical reasons+religous reasons+philosophical reasons etc, just outway all of the baseless arguments for not being vegan. But of course you already know this.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2008 7:42 pm 
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My mother bought the dog vegan treats b4 and they seem to suck. She will only eat them in front of us in order to please us, but for the most part these treats end up under the couch.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2008 8:51 pm 
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xjohanx wrote:
veganessentials: i am acctually standing in my dorm room totally alone and applauding your post. damn i wish i was that good with words


I agree that Veganessentials is always very well spoken :)

I think that dogs can thrive on a Vegan diet, but I'm not sure its healthy for cats. But I am interested in seeing more research.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2008 9:15 pm 
Dogs are an easy...no question about that. And in all honesty I bet you vegan dog food is better for dogs than most non vegan dog foods. Livestock is not fed what they're intended to eat...you are what you eat...dogs don't get to eat animals that are composed of what they should be eating. Also dogs in the wild live shorter lives than domestic dogs so they're already getting a longer lifespan. I say make dogs go vegan...its super easy.

Cats are different but high quality cat food is almost worse because they don't include entrails. Cats in the wild go for entrails first but since people want to give their cats human food grade meat...they don't get entrails...this is worse than giving cats cheap cat food.

***Regardless of what you do you've gotta think a bit and maybe not in so selfish of a manner. Protect your own animal(assuming crappy meat is healthier)...that is just one animal...or pay someone to kill many other animals for years and years.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2008 9:23 pm 
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veganpotter wrote:
Dogs are an easy...no question about that. And in all honesty I bet you vegan dog food is better for dogs than most non vegan dog foods. Livestock is not fed what they're intended to eat...you are what you eat...dogs don't get to eat animals that are composed of what they should be eating. Also dogs in the wild live shorter lives than domestic dogs so they're already getting a longer lifespan. I say make dogs go vegan...its super easy.

Cats are different but high quality cat food is almost worse because they don't include entrails. Cats in the wild go for entrails first but since people want to give their cats human food grade meat...they don't get entrails...this is worse than giving cats cheap cat food.

***Regardless of what you do you've gotta think a bit and maybe not in so selfish of a manner. Protect your own animal(assuming crappy meat is healthier)...that is just one animal...or pay someone to kill many other animals for years and years.


Ameeen brotha! What are entrails?

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2008 9:27 pm 
Entrails are the internal parts of the animal...all the organs...most importantly the intestines and liver. These are things people consider unhealthy for humans so human quality meat for cat food doesn't include this(I've only seen it once in a natural cat food).


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2008 9:32 pm 
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GoldenRatio wrote:

either way the human interference with natural processes is not necessarly correct even when backed by the best intentions


Nice statement.

I agree. :)

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