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PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2008 9:43 pm 
Having pets is human interference. So is killing for your pets. Where does it stop???


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2008 9:48 pm 
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I have had 4 dogs who have been healthy vegans for a long time. I currently house two of them...

Dogs are so easy to veganize... they can adapt to just about anything as long as it has the right ratios of proteins, carbs, etc. I actually cook and prepare all of the food that my dogs consume right now. They consume no commercially prepared food. It's rewarding to see my dogs enjoy the food that I cook for them, as much as they do. I supplement them with vegedog, just to make sure that they're getting all the essential vitamins, taurine, etc., but they absolutely adore having their food prepared especially for them.

Cats are more difficult, and some can fail to thrive on vegan diets... however some do thrive... it's heavily dependent on the individual cat I suppose.

My dogs have done nothing but thrive on a vegan diet, and I couldn't imagine feeding them anything other than a vegan diet. I can't stomach the idea of killing sentient non-companion animals to feed my sentient companion animals... just my two cents ;)

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2008 10:08 pm 
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veganpotter wrote:
Having pets is human interference. So is killing for your pets. Where does it stop???


I agree, and good question.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2008 8:54 am 
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Zack wrote:
veganpotter wrote:
Having pets is human interference. So is killing for your pets. Where does it stop???


I agree, and good question.


This is a question that I used to ponder quite often. The answer that I've best been able to figure out is this; It stops with us (vegans, and AR people).

To further elaborate; We should be the ones who stop purchasing companion animals, and do not support the breeding of non-human animals for human "use".

There is a big "HOWEVER" included here. Because humans are directly responsible for the surplus of companion animals that have been brought into the world as a result of humans breeding them, abandoning them, etc... we (as vegans and AR people) should also take on the responsibility to open our homes to these animals that need rescuing. We can't un-do what breeders and pet stores have done to the animal population, however we can take in ones who need homes NOW, without adding to the demand for new companion animals to be bred by adopting animals from shelters, rescues, etc.

I'm also going to go out on a limb here and say that we should try as much as possible to veganize our companion animals -- dogs especially. As far as other non-human animals are concerned, I certainly wouldn't fault an animal for being born a carnivore, and not being able to thrive on a vegan diet. Does that mean that a cat can't be a vegan?? Probably not. I've seen plenty of vegan cats that thrive. I've also seen plenty of vegan cats that fail to thrive, and wind up with urinary blockages, and other health problems that can be a direct result of diet.

I have two rescued dogs who are both vegans, and gleefully chow down on every single vegan meal that I prepare for them. On the other hand, I have two rescued ferrets, who I reluctantly purchase a meat-based food for. I can't fault them for having been born carnivores, and there's literally no way to veganize a ferret without serious health consequences (to the best of my knowledge). I suppose it depends on the animal.

I guess what I'm saying is this; We as vegans and animal rights people should step up to the plate and try to right the wrongs that have been done to companion animals by the pet industry, etc. and open our homes to rescues as much as possible... that way, we're helping to right the "human interference" as much as possible.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2008 7:09 pm 
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GoldenRatio wrote:
I dont think this is very ethically responsible... Chosing to be vegan your self is one thing but imposing that on an animal is another.I have a dachshund myself.
To each his own...


I anticipated this type of response. Would I not be forcing a meat diet on my dog and cats if I fed them that? Either way, it's up to us to make responsible decisions for our companion animals. I'm making an ethical one.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2008 7:11 pm 
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Wow, I didn't anticipate 33 replies. Thanks for chiming in everyone! Feel free to share on the blog as well, if you so desire.

I'm going to read through these comments.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2008 7:14 pm 
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phillipeb wrote:
this is an interesting topic with no right answer only what is right for you.

I personally feel i should not take the option from my cats. They eat a meat centric diet and i feel i should not change that, although they like my vegan food more than there own which is weird, but to each their own. My friend recently said "well what about the industry that produces the food"? His argument was because i am buying animal grade food i am allowing the industry of cruelty to exist. I have to agree with this statement, but i feel i have little choice other than buying them organic cat food from companies with good practices. He made the argument that if i was alright with that then why wouldn't i make the food myself from meat from local farms so i can ensure the quality and humane treatment of the meat.

This threw me for a loop actually because in essence i am okay with buying my pets food as long as i will never have to see the animal slaughtered. Which seems inherently wrong to me. I am at a moral crossroads and i have been thinking about this as of late.



You are correct in that you are supporting the industries. This is why I moved my pets to vegan diets. I wanted to sever ties.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2008 7:15 pm 
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xjohanx wrote:
@billy
I like your blog, keep it up!


Thanks, and you're exactly right with your comment above.

Damn, I wish I would have seen these comments earlier. It's much easier for me to reply on my blog.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2008 7:18 pm 
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GoldenRatio wrote:
either way the human interference with natural processes is not necessarly correct even when backed by the best intentions


Guess what? We're far beyond what is natural. We live in a completely unnatural world, full of suffering and pain. Yes, in the wild dogs and cats would eat meat; however, we have domesticated them and altered their nature generations ago. We do have the power to provide them with ethically-sourced food, however. Also, it's completely healthy. In fact, it's healthier with all the crap in pet food today.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2008 7:21 pm 
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GoldenRatio wrote:
Lets just end it here. You go veganize your animals and I will go to the park so my dog can go hunt some pigeons for dinner...


Anyone know who this joker is? I really wish this wasn't such a hot debate in our movement. How can we claim to be ending suffering when our pets consume it daily?

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2008 7:22 pm 
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VeganEssentials wrote:
As a guy who sells vegan cat and dog food, here's the perspective that I take on the issue:

It is an individual choice, and I neither condemn those that continue to feed meat to their cats and dogs, nor do I believe it is the "only way" that some people tend to think because it's an absurd, outdated notion that still clings to life through ignorance. There have been THOUSANDS of healthy, happy vegan cats and dogs out there over the past few decades, so anyone who wants to say that it isn't healthy is misinformed. If a quality food is used (NEVER try to make your own vegan food from scratch, particualrly for cats, unless your plan is to kill them slowly!) that contains all the essential nutrients and amino acids, then you have no worries going with a vegan food.

Unless you're turning your cat or dog loose to hunt their own food, you're giving them something unnatural, so let's not kid ourselves that a fancy $4 can of free-range meat based dog or cat food is the same thing they'd eat in the wild. When you're giving your dog a bowl of renderings and fillers that's formed into kibble or a meaty sludge, that's not any more natural of a diet than one based on vegan foods. That's just the way things are - I get a LOT of people who write us to antagonize the vegan perspective for foods, but come on, since when does a dog go out and naturally eat venison? Or kill a cow for beef? When does a cat catch a fish or eat a duck in nature? When you open a can of cat food and find nothing but a whole dead squirrel inside, then you'll finally have your "natural" option, but let's not kid ourselves that we're keeping close to nature when we feed our companion animals. Dogs aren't completely carnivorous, they're scavengers and are very good at existing well on whatever they come across that seems like it's good to eat. Ever been to a country like Jamaica where wild dogs just roam around freely? They're not going home to have someone feed them at night - they pick through trash, eat carcasses, leftover vegetables discarded by vendors, or whatever else they find when they're hungry. Cats don't NEED MEAT, they NEED TAURINE and ARACHADONIC ACID, which is normally in meat but can be created synthetically, as is used in the products we carry. If you can keep an open mind to that and get past the B.S. that gets perpetuated so often, you can start to see how a vegan diet for animals is not necessarily any less healthy or any more dangerous than standard rendering-based foods.

Cats and dogs are like people, though - some will absolutely thrive on a vegan diet (we've had quite a few people tell us how their animal's health improved considerably after the changeover), and we've had people say that their animals didn't take well and they went back to a meat-based diet. Every creature is its own entity, and much like how some people go vegan and feel great, others have a more difficult time because they haven't figured out how to balance things adequately for proper nutrition. Choosing to have a cat or dog go vegan isn't something to take lightly, and should only be done with research and plenty of consideration, not to mention having your veterinarian follow the animal's health to ensure that things are going well. It is something that needs to be done responsibly, as the health of the animal comes first and foremost - anything done without that in consideration is cruelty, particuarly anyone who forces a diet on an animal that just can't seem to adapt to it in a healthy manner.

What people also need to consider is that feeding a cat or dog a vegan diet isn't all-or-nothing. You CAN give a cat or dog a 25%, 50% or 75% vegan diet and still make a difference. Even a 50% reduction allows some people to feel that their animal can have balanced nutrition and still work to reduce suffering through decreasing their purchase of animal by-product based foods. It's much like with people - if you found NO way to feel good on a completely vegan diet (hypothetically speaking, of course) but found that eating vegan for 80% of your diet worked perfectly, why would you not consider being 80% vegan? It's not a black-and-white issue - every little bit helps when vegan food is put in place of meat-based animal foods, even if it's just a little bit mixed in with the gross stuff.

I can rant about this stuff all day, but I'll end it here. Remember, it wasn't that long ago that people in general thought that a vegan diet for humans was ludicrous and would lead to a quick death. Why do so many think that animals are so different and can't go vegan as well?


Thanks for your perspective Ryan. Always appreciated.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2008 7:24 pm 
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veggieprincess wrote:
xjohanx wrote:
veganessentials: i am acctually standing in my dorm room totally alone and applauding your post. damn i wish i was that good with words


I agree that Veganessentials is always very well spoken :)

I think that dogs can thrive on a Vegan diet, but I'm not sure its healthy for cats. But I am interested in seeing more research.


Definitely healthier than the only other alternatives in today's society. My cats are thriving on vegan diets. I see and hear about numerous other cats and dogs being euthanized at young ages...due to the food we feed them.[/b]

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2008 7:41 pm 
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xbillyx wrote:
veggieprincess wrote:
xjohanx wrote:
veganessentials: i am acctually standing in my dorm room totally alone and applauding your post. damn i wish i was that good with words


I agree that Veganessentials is always very well spoken :)

I think that dogs can thrive on a Vegan diet, but I'm not sure its healthy for cats. But I am interested in seeing more research.


Definitely healthier than the only other alternatives in today's society. My cats are thriving on vegan diets. I see and hear about numerous other cats and dogs being euthanized at young ages...due to the food we feed them.[/b]


This is an interesting claim, that I have never heard about. Were the dogs and cats strays, or victimized, abandoned, under fed or did they live relatively normal lives? The only reason I ask is because when that vegan baby died from malnourishment in Georgia or where ever that was, people assumed it was the diet, whereas the parents were just a bit crazy. I'm 100% in agreement that animals can and do thrive off vegan diets, but dying younger on meat based diets?? Do you have any sources to back that up

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2008 8:10 pm 
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Look around you. We're all dying from diseases we should never get. Cancer, heart attacks, stroke, diabetes. We're giving our pets these diseases as well. My dog was euthanized at the age of nine with massive tumors all over his body.

These diseases aren't natural or normal.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2008 8:35 pm 
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*Don't take me seriously this is only a hypothetical silly idea*

What if we put our dogs on a natural nature diet? Take our pets our to the wild and let them run free to hunt and game on there own. Learn to survive on there own and to dive down to there basic animal instincts. Then when there done eating they will come back to you and you can go back to where you live.

The natural instinct diet. A nature endorsed product since the beginning of time.

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