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PostPosted: Mon Nov 14, 2005 2:50 am 
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Elephant

Joined: Mon Oct 17, 2005 10:57 pm
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Location: Portland, OR
Voting outlawed gay marriage in oregon.

And took away a few unions of some friends of mine.

Clearly voting can do something :P

Lots of americans don't vote. Just makes my vote worth more. Yay me.

If anyone ever needs help filling out their ballot feel free to ask me. I'm always right. Seriously. When I vote people agree with me. Or if you really hate that plan, just skip the ones you don't want to vote on. But vote on stuff you care about. Like if you've got gay friends. Or want a street named after someone. Or something.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 14, 2005 10:33 am 
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Gorilla
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Thanks for that link, Megan. I've read other reviews of Miller's book that state similar findings -- that in spite of his claim to prove the election was stolen, his 'evidence' falls short.

What really bothers me is that stolen or not, there are clearly serious issues with electronic voting. There have been way too many irregularities in too many precincts involving all the various systems used to trust our democracy to these machines/systems. We need to go back to paper & pen ballots or punch cards & work out the kinks in the electronic systems before depending on them, the first kink being that these companies are owned by republican supporting corporations & their source code is not open.

Americans also need to get over the idea that we will know the outcome of any election the evening of election day. Personally, I think we should have Election Week & plan for another week or 2 to count & verify ALL votes.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 14, 2005 3:09 pm 
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Gorilla

Joined: Tue Aug 16, 2005 5:54 pm
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Location: Corvallis, OR
I agree Crispy. Here in Oregon we have mail in voting. It's not a flawless system, but I think it's superior to electronic voting. For starters, it is pen and paper so there's a way to verify the votes. Also since you can mail your ballots in well in advance, there is plenty of time to count them. I think it is slightly more open to fraud than a pen/paper walk up ballot box, in that when you're in a booth you're filling out your ballot of your own accord, whereas mail in voting is not necessarily private, nor regulated as the ballot is filled out.
Nonetheless, it is better than the machines!

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 Post subject: Re: politics
PostPosted: Sun Nov 20, 2005 2:19 pm 
Hero wrote:
if anyone reads this, im not looking to start a battle.

but I hate politics and voting. pssht to that.

I have to deal with politics (legislation, politicians and such) in my job, mostly because politics work to smooth the exploitation of animals animals and I try to stop that from happening.

I agree that politics and voting aren't the answer. People think it is different on the local level, but community officials are just as corrupt as the people on Capitol Hill.

The system is messed up. In 2000, I organized a Green Coalition on my university campus and actually pulled a large number of people out to vote for Nader. I thought the election year would be a good tool to get people interested in important issues. I knew Nader wouldn't win, but that wasn't the point. The point was to get people interested in making change beyond the ballot box.

Don't get me wrong, I think Nader has a lot of integrity, but the focus on reforming the electoral system misses the point. I always made a point that I had organized the Campus Green Coalition based on direct action, but I found that few people where interested in doing things directly. That's the problem with voting and politics. (Many of the people that joined the coalition actually didn't take it seriously and only supported it because it was a Republican state. At an election party they were all pulling for Gore to win.)

I find that the party system of organizing is corrupt, and it diverts all energy to the electoral process. And if the Green Party was corrupt, you can bet the others are also corrupt. This was more evident in the "anybody but Bush" election. Everyone was directed away from good direct action work to campaigning for a "lesser evil."

People become disempowered. They vote for people to think and act for them. The whole system is a form of hegemonic control, where by people buy into there own oppression. People complain about the election being stolen, but every election usurps our ability to make real change in the world.

Goldman was right. Don't buy into the system.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 20, 2005 2:43 pm 
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Elephant
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Location: Pittsburgh
Daniel...
instead of quoting your wonderfully intellegent and articulate post and making comments, i'll state it like this:

point 1 - agree
point 2 - agree
point .... - agree, agree, agree....

which means, jonathan, i agree with you as well.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 20, 2005 3:54 pm 
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Elephant
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Location: florida
Last summer Wal-Mart tried to get a permit to build a new store down the street from where I live. A bunch of people from the community came out to the permit hearing and basically told Wal-Mart to go eat poo-poo. "Eat poo-poo" weren’tt the exact words people used. Instead, they used bigger, fancier words, like “environmental degradation” and “traffic congestion” - but "eat poo-poo Wal-Mart" was basically the message. Guess what happened? It worked. The hearing board told Wal-Mart to get lost. Wal-Mart did everything “by the book” and if there wasn’t a bunch of public opposition at the permit hearings by people in the community, then they would have gotten their store. So my point is: getting involved in the community works if you choose to get involved and make it work.

Here’s an article about if from the newspaper if you want to read more http://www.tampatrib.com/FloridaMetro/MGBT130E0AE.html

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Nov 20, 2005 5:59 pm 
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Gorilla

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Location: Corvallis, OR
willpeavy wrote:
Last summer Wal-Mart tried to get a permit to build a new store down the street from where I live. A bunch of people from the community came out to the permit hearing and basically told Wal-Mart to go eat poo-poo. "Eat poo-poo" weren’tt the exact words people used. Instead, they used bigger, fancier words, like “environmental degradation” and “traffic congestion” - but "eat poo-poo Wal-Mart" was basically the message. Guess what happened? It worked. The hearing board told Wal-Mart to get lost. Wal-Mart did everything “by the book” and if there wasn’t a bunch of public opposition at the permit hearings by people in the community, then they would have gotten their store. So my point is: getting involved in the community works if you choose to get involved and make it work.

Here’s an article about if from the newspaper if you want to read more http://www.tampatrib.com/FloridaMetro/MGBT130E0AE.html


Funny, the EXACT same thing has happened at 2 locations in my hometown. It's been a long battle because Wal-Mart keeps trying to get in, but the community is quite firm that they're not welcome, and so far, community protest is beating out trashy and evil Wal-Mart.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 20, 2005 6:28 pm 
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Gorilla
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Location: Boulder, Colorado
veggymeggy wrote:
...but the community is quite firm that they're not welcome, and so far, community protest is beating out trashy and evil Wal-Mart.



That rocks!

I loathe Walmart - I loathe it. I had to buy a new car battery the other day. I was at the local car repair shop & he was kind & told me I could probably buy it cheaper at Walmart. I told him I don't shop at Walmart - I disagree with their business policies which are harmful to their employees & our local communities. "I sure wish more people thought like you do!" he told me. The young kid standing next to him gave me a thumbs up.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Nov 20, 2005 7:03 pm 
Yes, I agree that the people should be involved in their communities. People need to be directly involved in their communities, rather than politically "involved." Maybe if the people were more involved there would be a lot less Wal-Marts. But boards, councils, commission and committees aren't the people, and they often side with big business and the status-quo.

I'm glad people took on Wal-Mart and put pressure on the commission. :) I wish people would be more involved in my area where these commissions are setting up hunts on town land :x . But most people who have gone to the meeting have been made to feel like they don't count. The system is set-up in favor of politics, not people. And politics can still win out for Wal-Mart if it is appealed to the city council.

BTW, who was the jerk that approved the greyhound slave track?


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 20, 2005 9:13 pm 
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Elephant
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Location: florida
There are a lot of greyhound t racks in Florida, and they were here when my family first came to Florida in the 1980s, so I'm not sure how long they were here before that. ARFF (Animal Rights Foundation of Florida) has been protesting greyhound racing for years. And I'm not sure if it is because of ARFF or some other reason - but greyhound racing has been on the decline for that past 10 to 15 years. Less and less people are going to the tracks and supporting it. So that's a good thing, hopefully the trend will continue and the dog tracks will go out of business.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2005 7:35 pm 
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Gorilla

Joined: Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm
Posts: 897
Location: West Virginia
veggymeggy wrote:
Yeah, we've all heard the conspiracy theory bit.
Maybe there's truth to it, maybe there's not. Most things looks suspicious if you try.

HOWEVER - this is the more important point that is going largely unnoticed I think.....there are MORE than just presidential elections in this country :!: The president is a figurehead, some are better than others, but day to day not much is going to change regardless of who is in charge.

The place where your vote REALLY MATTERS is at home! What about local elections? And ballot measures! I know Oregon is a very evenly split state, I think we're known for being liberal, but that's only in the Portland area, and Eugene. (Corvallis is mixed) You go east of the Cascades and you're in all rancher redneck territory.

Corporate power usually easily defeats local and state governments. State governments can't afford to take on the bigger corporations as the corporation will simply move to a state that rolls over for them. The senate and presidential elections are hugely important in this respect.

This isn't to say that the local is totally unimportant but there certainly is a reason the republicans are all for states rights superseding national government.

I haven't read Miller's book. The evidence is quite clear simply from the exit polls. No need to go into all the funny business in Ohio although I have read all about that too. That doesn't prove it though, the statistical analysis of the exit polls versus the final tally does.

I like Thom Hartmann's stuff. I read Unequal Protection and something about sustainable living (last rays of the distant sun????) that was pretty good.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 24, 2005 12:41 pm 
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Gorilla
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Location: Boulder, Colorado
Jay wrote:
Actually ES&S and Diebold control the votes and they are owned by brothers who are right wing shills. Coincidentally exit polls no longer accurately predict outcomes of elections after having worked fine for 20 years. The chances that the 2004 election final tally could have been that far off from the exit polls is less than a million to one.

So actually if you want to effect change, you need to understand that voting will have little to nothing to do with it at this point.



One point frequently overlooked with the electronic voting issue is that if they are manipulating the elections (& I believe they are), they will also be able to manipulate the Democratic primary results. In essence, the Republicans will select both major party candidates. I believe this is one reason why they are pushing Hillary so much in the news. They want her to be the dem candidate.

On edit: Thom Hartmann is one of our best progressive voices. "Unequal Protection" was one of the best books on corporate power & how they are subverting our government to their interests. Jay, The other book you were speaking of is "The Last Hours of Ancient Sunlight" another excellent read. This year for the holidays everyone on my list is getting his book "We the People: A Call to Take Back America." The book is written in comic book fashion & is a quick read, but is a great primer of what our founding fathers intended for our country & the evil that is coporate personhood & how it is destroying our republic.

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