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PostPosted: Thu Nov 03, 2005 8:18 am 
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Elephant
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Location: florida
veganmadre wrote:
I AM HIGHLY POLITICALLY CHARGED! I hate capitalism. I disagree with a two-party system. I believe our voting system is corrupt and I hate that we actually consider America a democracy. A pure democracy is run by the people. We live in a representative democracy. And, I don't know about any of you, but there are very few people (in fact, NONE that I know of) that can honestly represent me on every issue. I strongly align myself with Noam Chomsky and Howard Zinn. I've voted in two presidential elections since turning 18. Voted Nader in 2000 and voted anti-republican across the board in 2004. Ultimately, I am anti-democrat as well. I'm pro-working class representation. Don't bullshit me that the democrats stand for that. Elitist Kerry with his billionaire wife and multiple estates???

Politics disgust me. Apathy, however, is acceptance and I CAN NOT stand for that.


There';s a lot of chances to get involved and a ffect the community via direct representation at the local level. Most people just don't care enough though to go to town hall meetings, zoning hearings, etc


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 03, 2005 2:04 pm 
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Elephant
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heres a song that perfectly sums up my feelings on the matter:

its by a band called five knuckle, and you can play it at www.myspace.com/fiveknuckle

best probably to listen to it reading the lyrics as unless you are used to the guys vocal style, you wont understand much!

People not numbers

No I didnt vote, I didnt feel I had a choice,
I felt within my silence, lay my only voice,

Its not that im not interesting in politics,
Its just that im not interested in their politics
Sick of their lies and their policies
Their arrogance and their hypocrasies
Masters of rhetoric and dancing round questions,
I want some answers and decent suggestions
Not my vote, not my leader,
Not my choice, we are people not numbers.

The most powerful countries in the world have
the best damn government that money
can buy, its just my idea of a good government
is one that cant be bought.

No space, no place for us to roam,
Everything is private, all the land is owned.

We have freedom of assembly until we assemble,
We have freedom of speech until we speak,
And if you dont do exactly as they say,
Well then you gotta answer to the police.
Debating our lives as if playing a game,
They can disperse the riot but the struggle remains
Its all about the money, its all about the money,
Its all about the money, we are people not numbers!


this is my favorate band btw, and the other songs there are fantastic - especially not in my name!

jonathan

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 03, 2005 2:23 pm 
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Gorilla

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Location: Corvallis, OR
Voting is almost always about picking the lesser of two evils, there is no doubt about that.

BUT - if YOU don't pick the lesser of two evils, then someone else IS. And I know we all agree there are an awful lot of morons in the world - I can't abide letting them have more say in how things are run than I do.

Think about that. Rednecks won our presidential election. We could have used a few more enlightened vegans at the polls.

Our political system is not one in which silence equates to taking a stand. It is what it is, it's not going anywhere anytime soon, and I for one refuse to give up the one voice I have to the idiots who vote haphazardly for whatever republican or local boy they see on the ballot.

-Which is why I vote. And I always take the time to make sure I know for who and what I'm voting.

Like veganmadre said - apathy is acceptance.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 03, 2005 2:31 pm 
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Elephant
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Location: Vegan Strength Cult, German HQ
Johnathan, is that song you posted called "People not numbers" or "Not in my name"??

I have the lyrics of a cool song called "Not in my name" here. I also remember hearing the song... i don't know the artist, though :oops:
I'm sorry that i can only present you the lyrics, as i really like the music as well.

Quote:
NOT IN MY NAME

Why should I have to show my I.D.
There's no consensus and I don't agree
With what they're undertaking in my name
I'm appalled and I'm ashamed

Why should I have to show my I.D.
To be enrolled in this community
Where all my role models are on the take
And the real thing is a fake

All my heroes died
While they were still alive
Confused or compromised
Their values undermined
They were led down to the hole
Where the blood and money flows

Why should I have to show my I.D.
Someone somewhere's got a file on me
And someone somewhere's got a file on you
Anyone will do

The world's ruled by a cheat
With his gang of thieves
Whose lies and double-speak
Spread faster than disease
And your pursuit of peace
Will mark you out a freak
A victim and a bore

While their portfolios soar
And weapons sales will peak
Aimed only at the weak
Those already on their knees
It's arms for amputees
It's the bullet's exit hole
Where the blood and money flows

Never again!
Not in my name!

Bad guys come first
The third world thirsts,
Starves or dies of AIDS
In the modern day crusades
The wild west will win
Defeat the Indians
Drive the devils to the door
With the homeless and the poor
And when there's nothing left to bomb
No-one left to beat
They'll train their crosswires on
The unseen enemy
The ever-present threat
That hasn't happened yet
And probably never will
Still they move in for the kill
But the night sights won't show
If you're friend or foe
Are you so much better than
The junkies and Saddam?
Are you guaranteed a place
When they build the master race?
Will the world then be pure?
We've heard that one before
In history's deepest holes
Where the blood and money flowed

Never again!
Not in my name!


Ah, awesome 8)

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 03, 2005 3:33 pm 
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Elephant
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Location: Edinburgh, Scotland
the lyrics are for the song people not numbers.

megan, there are many ways to be political without voting. the current form of 'democracy' is anything but democratic, and voting for it only condones the system. political activism is all about spreading awareness about just how corrupt the current system is, and offering alternatives that are both effective and realistic.

whilst there may be small differences between the democrats and reps on environment and a few other things, there really isnt much to choose between them.

jonathan

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 03, 2005 4:13 pm 
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Location: Norfolk, VA
veggymeggy wrote:
Voting is almost always about picking the lesser of two evils, there is no doubt about that.


It's just like that South Park episode where they had elections and their options were a Douche Bag and a Turd Sandwich.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 03, 2005 8:26 pm 
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Elephant
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veggymeggy wrote:
Voting is almost always about picking the lesser of two evils, there is no doubt about that.

BUT - if YOU don't pick the lesser of two evils, then someone else IS. And I know we all agree there are an awful lot of morons in the world - I can't abide letting them have more say in how things are run than I do.


Well said. I completely agree


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 04, 2005 3:36 am 
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Elephant
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well this is the problem with democracy at the moment. it doesnt take into account that many people are actually incapable of making an informed choice because they are too stupid.
i cant remember who said it (might have been Mills) but it seems that the masses need to be protected from their own free will. using this train of thought - take eating - people can eat what they want, so 60% of the US is overweight.
i know the above is a dangerous line of thinking but sometimes its frustrating that a vote from some dumb fucking hick is worth the same as yours.

jonathan

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 06, 2005 3:35 am 
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Elephant

Joined: Mon Oct 17, 2005 10:57 pm
Posts: 1242
Location: Portland, OR
I think it's actually worth more than yours if yours isn't used.


...
Right?

-Aaron


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 06, 2005 11:52 am 
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Elephant

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Johnathan, that sounds more like Hobbes. Though I know very little of Mills.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 06, 2005 3:07 pm 
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Elephant
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could very well be! it was the first essay that i did with my degree, and i think a small element was comparing the viewpoints of mills with hobbes. mills taking the 'leave everyone to their own devices unless they endanger others' versus hobbes and the aforementioned opinion.

im somewhere inbetween, as i believe virtually no action is without consequence, and many people are too stupid to know what is best for them. hobbes does represent a form of dictatorship though, so its something best left well alone!

jonathan

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 06, 2005 9:40 pm 
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Elephant
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Mill was a consequentialist who believed that humanity would best be served if people act in a way that would promote the greatest happiness, and avoid acting in ways that would cause the "reverse of happiness."

Hobbes believed that humanity would best be served if a "benevolent despot" were to maintain order, so that base instincts of people could be controlled and directed most efficiently.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 07, 2005 2:41 pm 
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Gorilla

Joined: Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm
Posts: 897
Location: West Virginia
veggymeggy wrote:
Voting is almost always about picking the lesser of two evils, there is no doubt about that.

BUT - if YOU don't pick the lesser of two evils, then someone else IS. And I know we all agree there are an awful lot of morons in the world - I can't abide letting them have more say in how things are run than I do.

Think about that. Rednecks won our presidential election. We could have used a few more enlightened vegans at the polls.

Our political system is not one in which silence equates to taking a stand. It is what it is, it's not going anywhere anytime soon, and I for one refuse to give up the one voice I have to the idiots who vote haphazardly for whatever republican or local boy they see on the ballot.

-Which is why I vote. And I always take the time to make sure I know for who and what I'm voting.

Like veganmadre said - apathy is acceptance.
\
Actually ES&S and Diebold control the votes and they are owned by brothers who are right wing shills. Coincidentally exit polls no longer accurately predict outcomes of elections after having worked fine for 20 years. The chances that the 2004 election final tally could have been that far off from the exit polls is less than a million to one.

So actually if you want to effect change, you need to understand that voting will have little to nothing to do with it at this point.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 07, 2005 3:12 pm 
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Gorilla

Joined: Tue Aug 16, 2005 5:54 pm
Posts: 778
Location: Corvallis, OR
Jay wrote:
veggymeggy wrote:
Voting is almost always about picking the lesser of two evils, there is no doubt about that.

BUT - if YOU don't pick the lesser of two evils, then someone else IS. And I know we all agree there are an awful lot of morons in the world - I can't abide letting them have more say in how things are run than I do.

Think about that. Rednecks won our presidential election. We could have used a few more enlightened vegans at the polls.

Our political system is not one in which silence equates to taking a stand. It is what it is, it's not going anywhere anytime soon, and I for one refuse to give up the one voice I have to the idiots who vote haphazardly for whatever republican or local boy they see on the ballot.

-Which is why I vote. And I always take the time to make sure I know for who and what I'm voting.

Like veganmadre said - apathy is acceptance.
\
Actually ES&S and Diebold control the votes and they are owned by brothers who are right wing shills. Coincidentally exit polls no longer accurately predict outcomes of elections after having worked fine for 20 years. The chances that the 2004 election final tally could have been that far off from the exit polls is less than a million to one.

So actually if you want to effect change, you need to understand that voting will have little to nothing to do with it at this point.


Yeah, we've all heard the conspiracy theory bit.
Maybe there's truth to it, maybe there's not. Most things looks suspicious if you try.

HOWEVER - this is the more important point that is going largely unnoticed I think.....there are MORE than just presidential elections in this country :!: The president is a figurehead, some are better than others, but day to day not much is going to change regardless of who is in charge.

The place where your vote REALLY MATTERS is at home! What about local elections? And ballot measures! I know Oregon is a very evenly split state, I think we're known for being liberal, but that's only in the Portland area, and Eugene. (Corvallis is mixed) You go east of the Cascades and you're in all rancher redneck territory.

We've had some hugely important measures and issues come up, and every time there's a vote it's super close with the condensed Portland area holding one side and the entire rest of the state on the other. Oregon is in the Supreme Court right now over assisted suicide! Portland legalized gay marriage and the rest of the state got pissed and banned it! Medical marijuana is legal here! Everyone one of those was a bitter campaign and vote. Local votes matter :!: :!: :!:

Whether or not presidential votes do...true, you're individual voice doesn't stand out as much. That doesn't justify not participating though. If you didn't vote, you don't get to complain about the outcome.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 07, 2005 3:37 pm 
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Elephant
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you are being naive if you think that voting will actually mean you get a say.

the political system is already so corrupt that it is the party with the largest campaign fund that wins.

take iowa, it some republican controlled areas that they knew were going to be taken by the dems (primarily black) they seriously undersupplied voting machines.

voting machines - brought in by republicans, untracable votiing, totally open to fiddling.

i believe michael told me when he was over that in the south they were putting signs up in rep areas saying that if you had any outstanding parking tickets or fines, you would be arrested if you voted.

another place in the south had signs up saying that the election was the day after it actually took place.

by voting you are validating the system, saying that its ok to cheat, lie, bride and steal. dismissing plausable evidence for corruption as conspiracy nonsence is exactly what the politicians want you to do

britain is a long way ahead of the hugely corrupt american political system but its still not representative or fair.

there are honestly hugely more effective measures for social change. voting is not one of them.

jonathan

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