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PostPosted: Sun Nov 06, 2005 12:10 pm 
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Stegosaurus

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CollegeB wrote:
I'd like to bring the utilitarian argument back in. In my opinion Vegans shouldn't buy new wool items, but if you have them its better to wear them than to just toss them out and buy new stuff, especially if you don't have the extra money. One step at a time, ya'll :D


I agree with that College B , although the problem of "advertising" becomes a concern when vegans walk around in animal stuff, (even if they had the wool garment from before they went vegan).

But that doesnt appear to be what Aaron said. He said that if wool wasnt so itchy, he would be "down with" getting wool (in other words buying wool) from a thriftstore. :?: :? I fail to see how that is acceptable from an ethical vegan perspective because you would STILL be purchasing wool. I dont think the fact that it is from a thriftstore in any way abates the ethical concerns. Are the abhorrent practices of the wool industry - such as museling and live sheep exports, as captured in that expose link I provided for Cristian- not in the least bit disturbing? I am putting myself in the shoes of the sheep and I am telling you that I would be BEGGING people not to support an industry that mutilates me and typically throws me overboard into the sea while I am fully conscious to drown to death if I get sick on my "export journey", or sometimes even grounds me up ALIVE if I get sick, leaves me hungry and thirsty on that export journey of hell, etc. etc. Grounded up alive or thrown overboard to drown, mutilated by the practice of museling, etc. etc. C'mon people - there is no question about the ethicalness of wool :!: :!: :evil: :evil:

If I have misunderstood what you said Aaron, by all means correct me.


Last edited by compassionategirl on Sun Nov 06, 2005 12:24 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 06, 2005 12:13 pm 
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Elephant
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Maybe it's better to wear old stuff than to freeze in winter :? But i'd feel VERY uncomfortable wearing old wool or leather items knowing what they are.
Besides, i'd probably still have wool and leather if i went by that argument cos these things last for ages.
Maybe it's just me but i can't understand how you'd want to wear such a thing...

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 06, 2005 1:51 pm 
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Elephant

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compassionategirl wrote:
CollegeB wrote:
I'd like to bring the utilitarian argument back in. In my opinion Vegans shouldn't buy new wool items, but if you have them its better to wear them than to just toss them out and buy new stuff, especially if you don't have the extra money. One step at a time, ya'll :D


I agree with that College B , although the problem of "advertising" becomes a concern when vegans walk around in animal stuff, (even if they had the wool garment from before they went vegan).


What's done is done. We can't do anything about the fact that wool has already been taken from sheep and made into garments, we can only influence what is done to them in the future. We can stop buying new wool items. We can show people where their wool comes from and hope that once they are enlightened to the cruelty that happens, they'll stop buying new as well.

Personally, I think that destroying a wool garment (or leather, or any other clothing or jewelry that comes from animals) rather than getting full wear and use out of that garment would be a dishonor to the animal it came from. It's horrible enough the way they have to suffer. It's even more inulting for them to suffer like that, only to have the results end up in the trash or forgotten forever in the back of someone's closet. If I'm not going to honor the animal(s) by wearing it out myself, I feel it's my responsibility to make sure it goes to someone else who can, maybe via thrift shop.

I don't think advertising is a really huge issue, since so many non-animal items are almost indistinguishable from animal-derived items, without reading the labels. If someone is walking around advertising the fact that they're vegan, I simply assume that their shoes are pleather and sweater is synthetic.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 06, 2005 2:48 pm 
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Stegosaurus

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Daywalker wrote:
Maybe it's better to wear old stuff than to freeze in winter :? .


I wear synthetics and I live in Canada -- a country that gets pretty damn near arctic temperatures -- I havent frozen to death yet Alex in my nice warm synthetics. :wink:

We dont need wool or fur to stay warm. We simply dont. We have, as a civilized society and as the species capable of making moral decisions, an ethical responsibility to find alternative ways to keep ourselves warm, to cure ourselves from disease, and to keep our tummies nice and full, WITHOUT the use of innocent and sentient beings that are completely powerless to defend themselves and are utterly at our mercy.

I have lots of fake leather stuff now (being a leather addict I replaced my real leather with fake leather) -- and I also have sewn patches on them that say "Fake, for the animals' sake." And I am quick to point out if I am complimented on my clothing that they are cruelty-free.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 06, 2005 3:40 pm 
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Elephant
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Michelle wrote:
What's done is done. We can't do anything about the fact that wool has already been taken from sheep and made into garments, we can only influence what is done to them in the future. We can stop buying new wool items. (...)

Personally, I think that destroying a wool garment (or leather, or any other clothing or jewelry that comes from animals) rather than getting full wear and use out of that garment would be a dishonor to the animal it came from. (...)

How is that honouring the animals?
What if there were leather clothes from human skin? Would it be dishonouring if i would refuse to wear that, although the person is dead already? What's done is done, better use it than throw it away... :?

We can stop buying new wool/leather items AND stop wearing the old stuff.
Okay, granted, it's not about being rational here, but i find animal products disgusting.


compassionategirl wrote:
I wear synthetics and I live in Canada -- a country that gets pretty damn near arctic temperatures -- I havent frozen to death yet Alex in my nice warm synthetics.

We don't need wool or fur to stay warm.

CG :D
You are perfectly right!
I was responding to "i'm too poor to buy new clothes and still wear old wool". I meant i wouldn't blame someone who really WAS poor.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 06, 2005 4:18 pm 
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Stegosaurus

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Daywalker wrote:
What if there were leather clothes from human skin? Would it be dishonouring if i would refuse to wear that, although the person is dead already? What's done is done, better use it than throw it away... :?



That is a very poignant example Alex that exposes the sub-conscious speceism entailed in the argument that "you might as well wear the wool or leather that you have instead of just throwing it out because the animals have already been killed and throwing the stuff out will not bring them back." Speceism is so ingrained into our heads that even I, and maybe some other vegans/ar people (though by no means all of them) exhibit it at times.

Your human skin example also applies to my wearing of fake leather. I said that I loved leather and so now I just wear fake leather with fake patches sewn on them. But, I wouldnt wear any "fake human skin" on me and proudly advertise that it was fake human skin and not real human skin. :shock:

It seems to me, then, that my wearing fake leather is speciest, and that I too exhibit speciest inclinations :shock: :( yet I never saw it this way until you provided the very uncomfortable and jarring example of wearing "human skin". :shock: Yet I dont consider myself a speciest person at all, and it is unlikely that this new revelation will cause me to throw out my synthetic leather jackets. My point: the speciest mindset is so entrenched from the moment we are born that even some very passionate animal rights activists, who are at least consciously non-speciest, appear to be affected by its silent, lingering, residual effects. :shock:


One last thing: i can just see how newcomers to veganism or animal rights, or even maybe meat eaters reading this might think:

"These ar people are freaks -- they are talking about wearing human skin for crying out loud. That f$#cked up!!!"

Obviously nobody here would wear a human!!!!! :!: :!: :!: :!: :shock: The point of using that example is that it effectively highlights the weakness in an argument. If we believe that an alligator has just as much right to NOT be made into a purse as do you and I (which I 100% do believe), then Daywalker's example, while highly distasteful, is something that should be pondered and reflected on by anybody serious about animal rights arguments.

just my two cents -- after a very uncomfortable and disheartening few minutes of self-reflection! :shock:


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 06, 2005 4:51 pm 
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Elephant

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Around here, from my understanding, stuff that doesn't get picked up at a thriftstore gets dumped. Stuck in a landfill. I can't see that being better. And I'd rather buy used than new... recycling versus new production...

As for 'advertising'... that's a tricky one. I like to think people are responsible for their own choices, that copying something it appears I'm doing is a poor choice or some such... At least without talking to me about it. Interesting interpersonal dynamic at that point.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 06, 2005 9:20 pm 
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Elephant
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It looks like this is turning into a debate of, "What's worse - resource depletion or validating the social norm of wearing animal skin." I don't really like either, but I think, long term, resource depletion is worse. So I have no problem with people wearing used wool, leather, etc, even though I nearly always avoid those products myself.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 07, 2005 5:54 am 
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Elephant
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Aaron wrote:
And I'd rather buy used than new... recycling versus new production...

I agree. But i wouldn't buy used wool.
I'd rather buy new synthetics or cotton.

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