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PostPosted: Mon Nov 14, 2005 4:43 am 
kollision wrote:
Jza wrote:
it may be the people that corrupt it and not the religion, but all religions are rather dependent on having people as members to sustain their existence
so they're immediately tied into that...


How are religions dependant on having people to sustain their existance? This would be the same with Veganism since without people to join it, there would be no veganism.




exactly. without vegans there would be no veganism,

therefore the behavioural problems and tendencies of humankind are implicit within any religion.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Nov 14, 2005 4:45 am 
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Elephant

Joined: Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm
Posts: 1448
Jza wrote:
exactly. without vegans there would be no veganism,

therefore the behavioural problems and tendencies of humankind are implicit within any religion.


Are you saying that Veganism is a religion? Or like religion?

So any problems within the Vegan or Animal Rights community (ie: ALF or whatever), can be attributed back the Veganism or Animal Rights itself? That's what you seemed to imply in regards to religion if I understood correctly.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Nov 14, 2005 4:56 am 
what i'm saying is that any movement/organisation is reliant on having human members for itself to exist...

Therefore the same problems that are present within humans (greed etc) will manifest themselves within the organisation to some degree, even if systems are in place to deal with them.



therefore human like behaviours are part and parcel of any religion.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Nov 14, 2005 4:57 am 
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Elephant

Joined: Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm
Posts: 1448
Jza wrote:
what i'm saying is that any movement/organisation is reliant on having human members for itself to exist...

Therefore the same problems that are present within humans (greed etc) will manifest themselves within the organisation to some degree, even if systems are in place to deal with them.



therefore human like behaviours are part and parcel of any religion.


Ah ok gotcha. So it does apply to everything. Not religion specifically.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Nov 14, 2005 5:04 am 
no, but religions seem to bring oit to the surface more illustriously...


possibly because they've been around longer, allowing problems to develop/advance more.

and possibly because religions have more of a focus on problematic behaviours/dictating "correct" intentions and behaviours than other similar sized organisations do.


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 Post subject: Re: What religion do you associate yourself with?
PostPosted: Mon Nov 14, 2005 5:14 am 
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Gorilla

Joined: Tue Aug 16, 2005 5:54 pm
Posts: 778
Location: Corvallis, OR
kollision wrote:
1. What were you born into?
2. What are you now?
3. What made you change? (if you did)
4. What are your ideas on religions in general?


1) Baptist. Not sure if there's any other specification to that....not Southern Baptist, just regular Christian Baptist
2)Not practicing any religion. Still go to the same church I grew up in for Christmas Eve services, that's about it.
3)I hated being forced to go; I always felt like my parents forced their religion on me. So, I pretty much abandoned it, and haven't felt any pressing need to replace it as of yet.
4)To be quite honest, I don't spend a lot of time thinking about religion. About a year and a half ago I had an experience that made me pause, and the person with who I shared this experience agreed that it was the one time we both stopped and thought "Wow, that was God" acting in our lives. But for the most part, religion seems like something that people 'need' to help them cope with life, to help them find answers, etc. I prefer to look within myself as opposed to a religion when I need to puzzle through things. I don't deny the possibility of God. I don't claim to know God exists, I won't say that God doesn't exist. However, religion just isn't something that currently has a place in my life.

_________________
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telling myself it's not as hard, hard, hard as it seems.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Nov 14, 2005 5:16 am 
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Elephant

Joined: Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm
Posts: 1448
Jza wrote:
no, but religions seem to bring oit to the surface more illustriously...


possibly because they've been around longer, allowing problems to develop/advance more.

and possibly because religions have more of a focus on problematic behaviours/dictating "correct" intentions and behaviours than other similar sized organisations do.


Ah ok thanks for the clarification. I get you now.

veggymeggy wrote:
But for the most part, religion seems like something that people 'need' to help them cope with life, to help them find answers, etc.


I feel the same way in regards to a lot of people turning to it for that reason alone.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Nov 14, 2005 5:36 am 
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Manatee
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Joined: Sat Oct 01, 2005 1:31 pm
Posts: 204
Location: London UK
Kollision, this is a tricky subject but I will nevertheless answer your questions. To make things easier, I think that we should just reply to the initial questions. I hope no one will be offended by my post.

1. What were you born into?
2. What are you now?
3. What made you change? (if you did)
4. What are your ideas on religions in general?


1. I was born into Roman Catholicism like the majority of Italians.

2. I don't think I can define my views within any particular category, some people may say I'm an atheist, others an agnostic.

3. My parents were your average Italian catholic , they did it because they sort of believe but more because over there it's the norm. As far as I can remember, I was never interested in going to church and only took the communion once, my first one. Growning up, I learned more about "my" religion and now to me they seem to be more like a criminal organization then a benevolent faith. The Vatican shaped my country in ways that are difficult to decribe unless you live there. I truly dislike their message and ideology: they're just men, corrupted, wealthy when they preach to be humble and, above all, narrow minded. They're always behind time and, in my opinion, only change their views when is inevitable. Their history with regards to women, other faiths, gays and human rights should be more than enough to keep people away from following this religion. In Italy, they're involved in politics on the count that they represent the Italian people as 90% of them have been babtised and therefore are considered catholic forever. I'm no longer "registred" a catholic and I urge to do the same to anyone who feel the Vatican doesn't represent them anymore. People that believe in this religion should not ignore their past and in my view should keep their faith and the Vatican separeted.

4. I'm sure every religion has interesting points, but I feel that this is due more to common sense than to the work of some superior being. Looking at human history, I feel that religions (by religions I mean organized religions) are more a problem than a solution. I strongly believe that faith should be something personal and therefore kept away from any form of control instructed by people who lived centuries ago.

This is a complicated matter which is difficult to explain, I overall feel that what I've just written should be enough to give you and other members a feel of where I stand.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Nov 14, 2005 6:02 am 
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Elephant

Joined: Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm
Posts: 1448
Cristian, there was no offense mate. It was just your opinion on things and it is ok. Thanks for sharing. I have heard a lot of what you mentioned from other Catholics, but the person was gay and still a Catholic.

Are Italians considered Orthodox Catholic? Well the majority that is.


Last edited by kollision on Mon Nov 14, 2005 6:34 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Nov 14, 2005 6:11 am 
there have been some interesting developments in the catholic church, with the vatican endorsing darwin/creationism in response to the idiocy of "intelligent design" that's being pushed by american christians.

and also the ordination of a priest who is married.

although that's more of a one off to spite the anglicans as he was formerly an anglican...minister?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Nov 14, 2005 6:35 am 
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Elephant

Joined: Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm
Posts: 1448
Jza wrote:
there have been some interesting developments in the catholic church, with the vatican endorsing darwin/creationism in response to the idiocy of "intelligent design" that's being pushed by american christians.

and also the ordination of a priest who is married.

although that's more of a one off to spite the anglicans as he was formerly an anglican...minister?


The Catholic Church accepted Darwinism and Evolution? Did I understand correctly? I would think that would be one of the last things they would accept.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Nov 14, 2005 6:37 am 
kollision wrote:
Jza wrote:
there have been some interesting developments in the catholic church, with the vatican endorsing darwin/creationism in response to the idiocy of "intelligent design" that's being pushed by american christians.

and also the ordination of a priest who is married.

although that's more of a one off to spite the anglicans as he was formerly an anglican...minister?


The Catholic Church accepted Darwinism and Evolution? Did I understand correctly? I would think that would be one of the last things they would accept.
Quote:
Evolution in the bible, says Vatican
By Martin Penner | November 07, 2005
http://www.news.com.au/story/0%2C10117% ... %2C00.html

THE Vatican has issued a stout defence of Charles Darwin, voicing strong criticism of Christian fundamentalists who reject his theory of evolution and interpret the biblical account of creation literally.
Cardinal Paul Poupard, head of the Pontifical Council for Culture, said the Genesis description of how God created the universe and Darwin's theory of evolution were "perfectly compatible" if the Bible were read correctly.

His statement was a clear attack on creationist campaigners in the US, who see evolution and the Genesis account as mutually exclusive.

"The fundamentalists want to give a scientific meaning to words that had no scientific aim," he said at a Vatican press conference. He said the real message in Genesis was that "the universe didn't make itself and had a creator".

This idea was part of theology, Cardinal Poupard emphasised, while the precise details of how creation and the development of the species came about belonged to a different realm - science. Cardinal Poupard said that it was important for Catholic believers to know how science saw things so as to "understand things better".

His statements were interpreted in Italy as a rejection of the "intelligent design" view, which says the universe is so complex that some higher being must have designed every detail.


basically they're claiming that's what they were always saying.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Nov 14, 2005 6:41 am 
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Elephant

Joined: Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm
Posts: 1448
Jza wrote:
kollision wrote:
Jza wrote:
there have been some interesting developments in the catholic church, with the vatican endorsing darwin/creationism in response to the idiocy of "intelligent design" that's being pushed by american christians.

and also the ordination of a priest who is married.

although that's more of a one off to spite the anglicans as he was formerly an anglican...minister?


The Catholic Church accepted Darwinism and Evolution? Did I understand correctly? I would think that would be one of the last things they would accept.
Quote:
Evolution in the bible, says Vatican
By Martin Penner | November 07, 2005
http://www.news.com.au/story/0%2C10117% ... %2C00.html

THE Vatican has issued a stout defence of Charles Darwin, voicing strong criticism of Christian fundamentalists who reject his theory of evolution and interpret the biblical account of creation literally.
Cardinal Paul Poupard, head of the Pontifical Council for Culture, said the Genesis description of how God created the universe and Darwin's theory of evolution were "perfectly compatible" if the Bible were read correctly.

His statement was a clear attack on creationist campaigners in the US, who see evolution and the Genesis account as mutually exclusive.

"The fundamentalists want to give a scientific meaning to words that had no scientific aim," he said at a Vatican press conference. He said the real message in Genesis was that "the universe didn't make itself and had a creator".

This idea was part of theology, Cardinal Poupard emphasised, while the precise details of how creation and the development of the species came about belonged to a different realm - science. Cardinal Poupard said that it was important for Catholic believers to know how science saw things so as to "understand things better".

His statements were interpreted in Italy as a rejection of the "intelligent design" view, which says the universe is so complex that some higher being must have designed every detail.


basically they're claiming that's what they were always saying.


What the.....Just to make sure, they used to denounce the very thought of this....right?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Nov 14, 2005 6:48 am 
yes.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Nov 14, 2005 8:31 am 
Offline
Elephant
User avatar

Joined: Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm
Posts: 1810
Location: florida
1. What were you born into?

Presbyterian

2. What are you now?

Agnostic

3. What made you change? (if you did)

Skepticism

4. What are your ideas on religions in general?

Science is my religion, all of the others are mythology to me. Still, I like any religion that preaches peace; and oppose any religion that preaches hate.


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