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PostPosted: Thu Nov 24, 2005 11:14 am 
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Tarz wrote:
Richard wrote:
Tarz wrote:
Rich - murdering people is against the law. Murdering animals is not.

Wider society does not have a problem with that in the way we do.


The law doesn't decide what people think is right or wrong. When slavery was legal, I wouldn't have said it was right, I would have said I think it's wrong. Similarly, if someone is stabbing a cow in the neck, I don't say "Hey that's awesome because you're a law abiding citizen". I say it sucks, it doesn't matter if it's legal or not, the law is totally wrong in my opinion


No matter if me and you think the law sucks Rich, most people obey and abide by the laws of the land they reside in.

It's socially and morally acceptable, as well as perfectly legal, for the vast majority of people in this world to murder animals for food, skins or simply pleasure.


I agree, however, I think they're all wrong, I don't think this is a 'agree to disagree' thing. I think someone who thinks its morally acceptable to kill animals has a nasty way of looking at things, and an unpleasant way of life, so selfish.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 24, 2005 11:26 am 
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Tarz wrote:
you can try and influence their decision, but still respect their right to disagree with you.


What do you mean by 'respect'? I don't verbally attack people or cut their heads off etc. But at the same time, I really do believe they're 'wrong', it's so cruel how they live and so selfish how they think animals should die for them. They shouldn't need laws to tell them what's wrong, it shows that they don't care that they have to be ordered not to do something. Like, say someone thinks that black people are all scum. The law prevents them from being racist towards them, but the thoughts are still there. And I still think the thoughts are wrong even if the actions are restricted. So even if the laws changed, and animal cruelty was illegal, if I ever met someone who thought it was okay to kill animals, but didn't do it because it's illegal, I still think they're out of order and should change their morals and how they percieve things.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 24, 2005 12:28 pm 
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Richard wrote:
Tarz wrote:
you can try and influence their decision, but still respect their right to disagree with you.


What do you mean by 'respect'? I don't verbally attack people or cut their heads off etc. But at the same time, I really do believe they're 'wrong', it's so cruel how they live and so selfish how they think animals should die for them.


Diddo for me.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 24, 2005 12:32 pm 
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Michelle wrote:
compassionategirl wrote:
inform them of the "why vegan" Truths and encourage them to go vegan (as I believe you said you had with some family members? or am I confusing you with somebody else)


That might have been me. I've led by example, and only informed when I've been asked questions or challenged. I don't feel that people truly listen to a message that they are not ready to hear. You are correct, though. I have influenced several people to try or at least consider going veg.


Good! This is a good approach in my opinion. Inform and encourage when you feel that the other person is listening or seems interested or is even merely questioning you. Good job Michelle.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 24, 2005 12:35 pm 
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Tarz wrote:
compassionategirl wrote:
Tarz wrote:
Rich - murdering people is against the law. Murdering animals is not.

Wider society does not have a problem with that in the way we do.


The point, however, is that society SHOULD have a problem with that; that society should be vegan, because killing innocent and powerless animals for the frivolous reason of cullinary pleasure when you dont need to do so in order to survive or even be healthy is OBJECTIVELY speaking, immoral.

No?


The truth is however that society DOES NOT have a problem with that, that society IS NOT vegan. Of course it's immoral to kill animals for our culinary pleasure when we don't have to. For most people it is perfectly acceptable, the norm, indeed a right ( you try telling some cultures that they can no longer eat meat ) to continue to kill defenceless animals for food.


From the bolded statement, Tarz, it seems that we agree. So, I think you just keep debating this with me because you like to see me get all hot and bothered. :wink:

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 24, 2005 12:38 pm 
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I'm sincere and genuine in my arguments.

If you get hot and bothered, well that's gotta be a bonus hasn't it? :wink: What red blooded male would not like to see CG all hot and bothered hey.....


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 24, 2005 12:47 pm 
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Tarz wrote:

It's not absurd at all, nor a stupid thing to say. How do you like it when people tell you to do something when you have no desire whatsoever to do it. I imagine you get pretty miffed.


Yes, it is a stupid thing to say Tarz. What I meant, so there is no misunderstanding, is that it is simply stupid to tell a vegan to go non-vegan. It is NOT stupid to tell a non-vegan to go vegan. The reasons for the stupidity in the one case and the lack of stupidity in the other case are obvious, no?

As far as getting people miffed. Hmm...somebody on veganfitness had a quote about the different stages truth goes through before it is accepted. One of the stages was basically, people getting "miffed." Just because people get angry at first -- which is usually their gut reaction -- that doesnt mean that you havent planted a seed. I am not going to walk around further silencing ALREADY voiceless animals because God forbid some non-vegan might get miffed or offended. Usually, they react that way because deep down inside they know that what they are doing is wrong. And vegans represent an uncomfortable and inconvenient choice for them: either change your lifestyle, or change you self-image. But you cannot have it both ways because killing animals for vanity or cullinary pleasure is simply unkind, and umerciful, and just plain selfish, cruel and heartless.

So getting people miffed is sometimes an unevitable cost of doing the important work of animal rights. SOme people get 'miffed' even just by the concept of animal rights, let alone an actual animal rights activism.

The animals' story needs to be told -- and it is more important to shine a spotlight on their suffering instead of worring about human "miff'. Especially since they are powerless to defend themselves, are voiceless, and because, like my signature quote says, the excesses in the opposite direction are MAMMOTH in comparison. Animals are by far the most oppressed and silenced and powerless group of beings out there. So no, I am not going to slap another peice of duct tape on animal's mouth (metaphorically speaking) for fear of making somebody uncomfortable or miffed. Just the opposite in fact -- we should be removing the duct tape that is already on their mouths, placed by the powerful animal exploiting industries.

All of this is just really theoretical anyway. Obviously, when involved in activism, like Will said once, the animals dont need us to be right, they need us to be effective, so we should approach our duty to help animals by promoting veganism with common sense and effective strategies. Believe it or not, I dont actually walk up to old ladies sitting in apark having a hot dog and get right in their face and scream "bloody murder" (even though that is what I may be thinking). Rather, I might grab a veggie dog from the stand, sit next to them, strike up a pleasant conversation and tell them how amazing my veggie dog tastes and how much more healthful it is.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 24, 2005 1:20 pm 
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Michelle wrote:
Tarz wrote:
We may not like their decision, but you have to respect people's right to change their mind. What they wish to do, is ultimately up to them and not us.


I agree with this. We can set an example, we can educate, we can encourage, and we can be supportive - and we absolutely should do all these things. Unless something is against the law and we have legal recourse, that's the best that we can do. Being judgemental serves no purpose for anyone involved.


Michelle, that was perfectly stated.


on edit: Here's a link to a site that sells vegan cat & dog food. My little cats eat the vegan chow (regular, not the cheeze - they didn't like the cheeze flavor) & they love the canned food. There's also a supplement that you can add to your own home cooked food. I haven't tried that yet as I barely have time to cook my own food.

http://www.vegancats.com/


Admittedly, BadCharlie still eats meat food. He will be the last meat eater I live with. In the future, I will not justify the harm to one animal for the benefit of another, but for now I do.

===

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Last edited by CrispyQ on Thu Nov 24, 2005 1:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 24, 2005 1:33 pm 
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Okay, tell me how you and Michelle are defining judgmental or "being judgmental"

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People reviled today for their activism will be tomorrow's angels, and people respected today for their power will be tomorrow's demons. History will absolve us and condemn them. ~ Paul Watson


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 24, 2005 2:00 pm 
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compassionategirl wrote:
Okay, tell me how you and Michelle are defining judgmental or "being judgmental"



Well, Nat, I guess it would be telling someone they’re wrong. And the problem I have with it is I think it turns people off to whatever message you state after that.

I think a better way is to point out that eating meat harms other beings, beings who feel pain, enjoy their lives as much as we enjoy ours, & all for a reason that is no longer valid – we don’t need to eat animals to survive. By going this route, you have not attacked their behavior, but rather have given them arguments to consider or refute. I guess it's really a matter of taking the personalization out of our statements.

I think you are a great voice for the animals. I admire that you encourage people to watch “Meet your Meat.” I think it’s a great educational tool; very graphic, honest, & revealing about their cruel choices. I don’t consider that judgmental.

That said, I realize this is a board of vegans & a great place to vent about our society’s conventional cruel mores. Sometimes it helps our everyday interactions with non-vegans to come here & rant about their lack of humanity toward non-human animals. I know I struggle daily with human beings lack of compassion for anything non-human.

===

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 24, 2005 2:12 pm 
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This whole debate has kinda made me sad

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 24, 2005 2:44 pm 
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Yeah. In general, I don't like to argue. It's just not part of my personality so there are a few topics I don't get involved in. I think arguing is part of forums though, so it will always be here. I primarily use it to meet other awesome vegans, share news and ideas, post information and articles, promote upcoming events and products and I have a lot of fun here! I know it sounds lame but I learned a long time ago, "the best way to win an argument is to avoid it." Which is why in the general discussion when I was kinda attacked about my film and website and vacation, I just explained how it all got started and that arguing is a bit silly and distracts from the greater reason we're all here; to help reduce animal suffering. But I understand people are passionate about certain things and we will not always agree. I just keep the reason I do what I do in the back of my mind all the time and nothing really ever bothers me that much. I just turn my other last name :wink: "cheek(e)"
-Robert

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 26, 2005 12:57 pm 
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Richard wrote:
I don't have pets. My mum took in a cat which she keeps, and she feeds it fish. I keep trying to get her to feed it vegan, but she won't do it, it sucks. If I had a pet I'd try my hardest to feed it vegan food. If it can't survive on a vegan diet, I'd have to try something else, but it's not my intention to have a pet


Your mum's cat isnt an "it", but rather a "she" or a "he".

See how even some non-speciest people like Richard (and me cuz I too have done this) for example are so conditioned by society to think of animals as "its" that even we still find ourselves inadvertently refering to animals as "its" when not careful, even though we dont accept that animals are commodities/objects, but rather accept that they are individual beings with rights! :cry:

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People reviled today for their activism will be tomorrow's angels, and people respected today for their power will be tomorrow's demons. History will absolve us and condemn them. ~ Paul Watson


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 26, 2005 2:00 pm 
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Well I'm not sexist either :P but yes you're right

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 26, 2005 4:08 pm 
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Law students know the power of language.

Nice work : )


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