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PostPosted: Wed Nov 23, 2005 6:34 pm 
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Gorilla
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veggymeggy wrote:
sinisterkungfu wrote:
veggymeggy wrote:
I'm as liberal, open-minded, whatever as the next guy, but there are some things that are just WRONG no matter what. And if there is an entire culture that accepts something that's wrong,
it is still wrong. I think this example was used before, but slavery was wrong when the Egyptians did it, it was wrong when the US did it, and it'll be wrong in any other culture that uses it. Just because a group of people adopts something, does not make it ok. It makes it convenient, it means they've adopted a mechanism to allow themselves to justify it, it does not make it ok.

Enough out of me :D


It's wrong for you. If an entire culture does it, it's obviously not wrong for them. In other people's eyes it may be, but which side is right? The point of that being, the two opposing cultures have different moral views. Universal morality is a lie made up by people trying to promote their agenda as the only correct one.


Nu-uh. It IS wrong for 'them' whoever that may be. You can't say something is ok if you're 'this' and not ok if you're 'that'. (I'm a white chick in 21st century U.S. and slavery is wrong, but if I'm a white chick in 18th century america, slavery is a-ok). That just doesn't work. It's either wrong or it's not. Moral relativity is a lie made up by people who don't want to answer for their actions.


No, moral relativity is a phony buzzword thrown around by the people I mentioned in my last post after they've been proven wrong. Just look at how many times it's been used in this thread.

Look at it this way. Slavery is obviously wrong today. You have been inundated since birth with this way of thought. Now just imagine if you were in ancient Egypt. Slavery was not only perfectly acceptable to them, it was a way of life. You would have been inundated with that since birth. It's wrong when you look back on it with what you believe today, but if you were alive then, you wouldn't think the same way.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 23, 2005 6:56 pm 
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The point I wish to make though, is that just because they didn't think it was wrong, and never came to realize it was wrong, doesn't mean it wasn't wrong. I understand that they didn't think it was, and maybe I do things that are morally wrong daily and don't know it...but that doesn't change them from being wrong.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 23, 2005 8:48 pm 
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Stegosaurus

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sinisterkungfu wrote:

No, moral relativity is a phony buzzword thrown around by the people I mentioned in my last post after they've been proven wrong.


How were we proved wrong? As far as I am concerned, sisterkungfu, your arguments are not only unpersuasive, but comical.

I totally agree with what Veggy meggy said above and what Falnders said in the very beginning and what Jonathan said, and Will, etc. Just because a society doesnt yet accept the immorality of a certain practice or custom, that does NOT mean that the custom or practice in question is not objectively immoral.

You of course say that there is no such thing as objective morality. It is all relative. Well, if I am ever raped, if my infant child is ever taken from me and brutally murdered, if my husband is beaten to death for his wallet, if my parents are ever abducted and tortured, I will try and comfort myself in the knowledge that its all morally relative. :?

the lion comparison (whoever made it) was ridiculous since animals cannot make moral decisions but humans can. So nuff said about that, as I think --or at least I thought-- it was prety obvious. :?

Big: no my cats arent vegan, yes I have tried, no I wont starve them into submission, no I am not happy about feeding them non- vegan food.

I totally agree with Richard taking out animals and substituting people in Tarz's post to make a point. And Tarz, I dont find your response to Richard very persuasive at all. It seems to reinforce, validate or otherwise excuse the speciest attitude reflected in society.

Lastly, if the animals which ethical vegans are concerned about could only read and understand this thread, they would feel extremely saddened and hopeless by some of the things that they would hear coming from the mouths of ethical vegans no less! That truly sickens me. As if activism in an animal exploiting society isnt hard [b]enough, then you have ethical vegans [b]siding with meat eaters on their argument: "Dont tell me what is moral and what isnt. You have no right to tell me that I should be vegan." :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: Are you F$#%^ kidding me???? I find that alliance from hell quite literally sickening. [/b]

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Last edited by compassionategirl on Thu Nov 24, 2005 12:51 am, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 23, 2005 9:10 pm 
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Stegosaurus

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Tarz wrote:
Rich - murdering people is against the law. Murdering animals is not.

Wider society does not have a problem with that in the way we do.


The point, however, is that society SHOULD have a problem with that; that society should be vegan, because killing innocent and powerless animals for the frivolous reason of cullinary pleasure when you dont need to do so in order to survive or even be healthy is OBJECTIVELY speaking, immoral.

No?

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People reviled today for their activism will be tomorrow's angels, and people respected today for their power will be tomorrow's demons. History will absolve us and condemn them. ~ Paul Watson


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 23, 2005 9:20 pm 
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Elephant
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sinisterkungfu wrote:
willpeavy wrote:
And my point was that there are univeral norms/morals/rules which have run across all societies throughout history. Basically, we'll just have to agree to disagree


They're not universal if they're not followed by every single individual.
Besides, what about those tribes where the strongest ruled, and the only way to become the chieftan was by killing the old chieftan? It was fairly common to kill someone who wronged you, or who you had a disagreement with. There is no definitive set of moral values that has been shared by every society that has ever existed. For hundreds of years there were many societies that would make slaves of their vanquished enemies. Other societies during the same time periods didn't do it, probably because they didn't feel it was right. No universally shared morals there.


If a society has determined that it is okay to kill in revenge for a wrong committed (you use the language, "It was fairly common to kill someone who 'wronged' you"), then the society has come up with a rule/ethic/moral/norm (whatever you want to call it) for when killing is justifiable. All societies have created rules for determining when killing is okay or not okay, who has sexual access to who, how wealth and power are distributed or attained, etc. And in all societies, going around killing people on a whim is prohibited. A few individuals within a society may deviate from this norm, but all societies in general attempt to enforce the norm of not killing people on a whim. And just because a few individuals in a society deviate from the ethical norms of the society at large, does not mean the society as a whole does not hold or attempt to enforce their ethical norms. If you don't understand what I'm saying, then too bad, I don't really want to explain it to you or debate it any further.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 24, 2005 12:20 am 
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Tarz wrote:
We may not like their decision, but you have to respect people's right to change their mind. What they wish to do, is ultimately up to them and not us.

How would we like it if some-one told us to start eating flesh again?





First of all, I dont agree that people have the right to freedom of action when their conduct is causing weaker, powerless, innocent and sentient individuals immense suffering. In short, you dont have the right to go about hurting others for frivolous reasons. :evil: I consider gluttony, selfishness and vanity very frivolous reasons. So if somebody is fully aware of the suffering caused by a non-vegan lifestyle, then I cannot respect that person's decision to remain non-vegan, or revert back to non-veganism (subject to the qualification I note above).

yes, what they do is ultimately up to them, since we cannot force people to be vegan, but that doesnt mean that we should pat them on the back and say "oh well, nice try. Maybe veganism isnt for you. We will excuse you from your responsibility to carry your moral weight." Tarz, if I ever go back to a non-vegan lifestyle, dont excuse me, dont console me, CRUCIFY me. Do it for the animals' sake, for they would be the ones who really need the consoling.

As far as "how would we like it if people told us to eat flesh again?"- this is absurd. That is like saying, what if somebody told me to kill people, rape women, etc etc. So what? It is a stupid thing to say. Michelle, you say that this has happened to you. Well, have you asked these people "What positive thing would be gained for my own health, for the animals or for our fragile planet, by my reversion to meat eating?" ASk them point blank to give you ONE compelling and unselfish reason to go back to a non-vegan diet and that should end that non-sense right there. If they, in turn, ask you for one compelling reason why they should go vegan, you can give then at least five! 8)

:?

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People reviled today for their activism will be tomorrow's angels, and people respected today for their power will be tomorrow's demons. History will absolve us and condemn them. ~ Paul Watson


Last edited by compassionategirl on Thu Nov 24, 2005 12:57 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 24, 2005 12:37 am 
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Tarz wrote:

Sad as the suffering inflicted on animals as a result of Megan's friends decision is, she has her reasons, and it is her decision whether to pursue a vegan diet and lifestyle.



No, tarz, not merely "sad". Sad is when I break up with a boyfriend. Sad is when my best friend moves half way across the world. Sad is when my cats will pass away after I have given them amazing lives full of love and joy. Those things are 'sad'.

The mutilation, the intimidation, the fear, the horror and deprivation, physical and psychological abuse inflicted on animals in factory farms and slaughterhouses isnt 'sad' Tarz; it is enraging, intolerable, tragic, appauling, repugnant to our sense of human decency.

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People reviled today for their activism will be tomorrow's angels, and people respected today for their power will be tomorrow's demons. History will absolve us and condemn them. ~ Paul Watson


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 24, 2005 1:25 am 
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Elephant

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compassionategirl wrote:
As far as "how would we like it if people told us to eat flesh again?"- this is absurd. That is like saying, what if somebody told me to kill people, rape women, etc etc. So what? It is a stupid thing to say. Michelle, you say that this has happened to you. Well, have you asked these people "What positive thing would be gained for my own health, for the animals or for our fragile planet, by my reversion to meat eating?" ASk them point blank to give you ONE compelling and unselfish reason to go back to a non-vegan diet and that should end that non-sense right there.


Your suggestion would end the nonsense right there, if they were well-informed enough and/or open-minded enough to understand that we don't need to eat animals. When I first decided to try veganism, I actually had a friend recommend that if I'm going to pursue a vegan lifestyle, I should really consider eating a cheeseburger or something once a week, as insurance to make sure I get my nutrition. I thought he was teasing at first, but he seriously believes that humans simply must eat other animals, as a matter of survival. (Apparently, some of us are still brainwashed from the food pyramid in school.)

No, I did not take his advice, but I'm actually glad he gave it. The discussion spawned some research on my part, in an effort to disprove him, that further solidified my decision not to eat meat.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 24, 2005 2:07 am 
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Stegosaurus

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Michelle wrote:
compassionategirl wrote:
As far as "how would we like it if people told us to eat flesh again?"- this is absurd. That is like saying, what if somebody told me to kill people, rape women, etc etc. So what? It is a stupid thing to say. Michelle, you say that this has happened to you. Well, have you asked these people "What positive thing would be gained for my own health, for the animals or for our fragile planet, by my reversion to meat eating?" ASk them point blank to give you ONE compelling and unselfish reason to go back to a non-vegan diet and that should end that non-sense right there.


Your suggestion would end the nonsense right there, if they were well-informed enough and/or open-minded enough [quote]

yup. And if they arent informed, inform them of the "why vegan" Truths and encourage them to go vegan (as I believe you said you had with some family members? or am I confusing you with somebody else). Do it for their own health, do it for the animals, do it for our fragile earth.

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People reviled today for their activism will be tomorrow's angels, and people respected today for their power will be tomorrow's demons. History will absolve us and condemn them. ~ Paul Watson


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 24, 2005 2:20 am 
over zealousy will get you nowhere


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 24, 2005 2:44 am 
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Elephant

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compassionategirl wrote:
inform them of the "why vegan" Truths and encourage them to go vegan (as I believe you said you had with some family members? or am I confusing you with somebody else)


That might have been me. I've led by example, and only informed when I've been asked questions or challenged. I don't feel that people truly listen to a message that they are not ready to hear. You are correct, though. I have influenced several people to try or at least consider going veg.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 24, 2005 10:51 am 
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Gorilla
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Some of you people are just as bas as the right wing religious extremists with the whole "my way is the only way and if you don't believe in it you're wrong and there's no room for argument" :roll:


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 24, 2005 10:51 am 
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Richard wrote:
Tarz wrote:
Rich - murdering people is against the law. Murdering animals is not.

Wider society does not have a problem with that in the way we do.


The law doesn't decide what people think is right or wrong. When slavery was legal, I wouldn't have said it was right, I would have said I think it's wrong. Similarly, if someone is stabbing a cow in the neck, I don't say "Hey that's awesome because you're a law abiding citizen". I say it sucks, it doesn't matter if it's legal or not, the law is totally wrong in my opinion


No matter if me and you think the law sucks Rich, most people obey and abide by the laws of the land they reside in.

It's socially and morally acceptable, as well as perfectly legal, for the vast majority of people in this world to murder animals for food, skins or simply pleasure.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 24, 2005 10:58 am 
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Elephant

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compassionategirl wrote:
Tarz wrote:
Rich - murdering people is against the law. Murdering animals is not.

Wider society does not have a problem with that in the way we do.


The point, however, is that society SHOULD have a problem with that; that society should be vegan, because killing innocent and powerless animals for the frivolous reason of cullinary pleasure when you dont need to do so in order to survive or even be healthy is OBJECTIVELY speaking, immoral.

No?


The truth is however that society DOES NOT have a problem with that, that society IS NOT vegan. Of course it's immoral to kill animals for our culinary pleasure when we don't have to. For most people it is perfectly acceptable, the norm, indeed a right ( you try telling some cultures that they can no longer eat meat ) to continue to kill defenceless animals for food.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 24, 2005 11:08 am 
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Elephant

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compassionategirl wrote:
Tarz wrote:
We may not like their decision, but you have to respect people's right to change their mind. What they wish to do, is ultimately up to them and not us.

How would we like it if some-one told us to start eating flesh again?





First of all, I dont agree that people have the right to freedom of action when their conduct is causing weaker, powerless, innocent and sentient individuals immense suffering. In short, you dont have the right to go about hurting others for frivolous reasons. :evil: I consider gluttony, selfishness and vanity very frivolous reasons. So if somebody is fully aware of the suffering caused by a non-vegan lifestyle, then I cannot respect that person's decision to remain non-vegan, or revert back to non-veganism (subject to the qualification I note above).

yes, what they do is ultimately up to them, since we cannot force people to be vegan, but that doesnt mean that we should pat them on the back and say "oh well, nice try. Maybe veganism isnt for you. We will excuse you from your responsibility to carry your moral weight." Tarz, if I ever go back to a non-vegan lifestyle, dont excuse me, dont console me, CRUCIFY me. Do it for the animals' sake, for they would be the ones who really need the consoling.

As far as "how would we like it if people told us to eat flesh again?"- this is absurd. That is like saying, what if somebody told me to kill people, rape women, etc etc. So what? It is a stupid thing to say. Michelle, you say that this has happened to you. Well, have you asked these people "What positive thing would be gained for my own health, for the animals or for our fragile planet, by my reversion to meat eating?" ASk them point blank to give you ONE compelling and unselfish reason to go back to a non-vegan diet and that should end that non-sense right there. If they, in turn, ask you for one compelling reason why they should go vegan, you can give then at least five! 8)

:?


I agree that people have no moral right to inflict suffering on animals. Like it or not though Nat, they have a legal right, which you or I can't take away from them, at least not for now and until things change.

It's not absurd at all, nor a stupid thing to say. How do you like it when people tell you to do something when you have no desire whatsoever to do it. I imagine you get pretty miffed. I get the impression Nat, you don't take kindly about being told what to do. :wink: Same goes for others being told by me and you what they can and can't eat.

People make their own minds up Nat. Nothing you can do about that - you can try and influence their decision, but still respect their right to disagree with you.


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