Vegan Bodybuilding & Fitness

I assume some of you have read Raw Power! by Stephen Arlin of San Diego.

Arlin is a Raw Foodist (Vegan), who has in the past deemed all cooked food "poison".

If you have read Raw Power! let me know and we can discuss it on the PM section on the board if you would like.

Take Care,

Jon

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"Bond dropped to the floor and did 20 slow push-ups until every muscle burned." Ian Fleming

I have read the first edition of "Raw Power". It was a while ago, but I didn't agree with either the training, or dietary advice. I happen to know 2 strength athletes who use high raw (Pat Reeves European Powerlifting champ & Robbie Hazeley-in this years Mr Great Britain, Mr England & Mr Wales contests), neither of them follow eating routines advocated by Arlin.
In my view his training methods lead to overtraining too. Most people agree you train fairly short & intense, Arlin seemde to advocate training as much as you can (from what I can remember).
I do think it's possible to get big & strong on a raw diet, but obviously it's harder, as you've got less food choices & would need to up for a lot of advanced preparation etc. Training should be the same as anyone's training for the goals you set (eg Bodybuilder, Powerlifter, Highland games/strongman etc).
My ideas for creating a raw food strength diet would differ radically from Arlins.

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Pete
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I agree 100% Pete!



Pete, would you please share your opinion on raw food for strength athletes with us?
I know something about nutrition (i thought), but not about raw food. So far i only knew Arlins thoughts on that, and that didn't seem right with me.

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No one said it would be easy.

I'm no expert, by a long way. Maybe you could coax Robbie Hazeley to post as he's actually done the whole raw thing (& still does, but not for contest training).
First off I'm not sure you could do raw for contest. Especially if you had any sort of carb sensitivity, then your carbs couldn't be brought down enough (in any way I can think of). My view would be to keep things as simple as possible. SO,
say eat 8 times a day (you'd not be eating as calorie dense food, so you might well need more feeds).
I'd look into the high(ish) protein foods like spiralina, chlorella. Also depends on how you define your raw, you've got stuff like Tempeh ok, it's cooked soya beans, but it's got live mould on it, raw food or processed? Same with stuff like live soya yoghurt, living, but processed. Yeasts have been a standby for musclemen for over 100 years, so that'd be something I'd look into. I'd probably go for whole seeds to get my EFA's (flax, hemp etc) maybe sprouted. Which brings onto sprouts, you'd need to include them a fair bit.
I know Pat devoted a whole room in her house to sprouts (Pat Reeves-raw vegan & European Powerlifting Champion) & she's in the smallest weight class. Bigger guys would need to think a lot before starting down the raw road as it wouldn't be an easy road (if possible at all for most).
I haven't really delved into the full details about how much of what you'd actually need (as you can tell!), but it would be a problem getting enough protein. Carbs & fat easy, but proteins, I wouldn't like to say for sure that anyone (except the few I know that have done it), could do it without sorting out a full nutrition plan, then seeing how they get on...
I just had a run through a few online journals (pubmed, nutrition.org, JAP, etc etc). Nothing as yet about raw vegan athletes (let alone raw strength athletes), just incase there were any new studies, kept getting sidetracked by reports that caught my eye (you do don't you ), but nothing new that could be of any help.
Sorry about the sparse outline. I just wouldn't like to lead anyone astray giving blanket statements that I couldn't be sure of, or backed up with solid research.

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Pete
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Thanks a lot Pete!

That's almost enough for me
It's pretty much what i thought.
I've tried the raw way, but i probably made too many mistakes. Anyway, i lost over 20kg and was weak and sick all the time. After 6 months i had to stop it, with severe protein and Vit. B12 deficiency (if not other deficiencies, too).

I believed what every raw foodist i knew at that time said: that there's no problem and nothing to worry about as long as you eat 100% raw. Somehow it didn't work for me though

Thanks again,
love and peace,
D.

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No one said it would be easy.

We've done some stalls at several raw-food festivals promoting Vegan Bodybuilding. A few of the guys (it was always the guys) came over with their tiny, skeletal limbs raving at us that weight training was wrong, you just needed to eat raw & nothing else! It was madness, like they were blind or it was a sort of religious zealot type of thing. I know a few raw-fooders that have done ok, they eat a lot & prepare food in unusual ways (I got some unusual recipes at http://www.veganbodybuilding.org/recipes.htm#rawsection for those who want to check it out). These people usually know a lot about nutrition, train (in one form or another) & are say 60-90%+ raw depending. it's rare to get a person 100% as versions vary.
I'm a tad too lazy to do more than I do now. I eat salds most days, a fair amount of fruit, but I'm also not adverse to cooked rice, tempeh, tofu, a bit of "fake meat", soups etc. More into the whole-food thing rather than raw-food thing I suppose.

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Pete
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Daywalker,

this is hard to believe. To loose B12 within six months and getting even a deficiency. Our body stores B12 and supplies you (depending on your supplements and nutrition) for 1 to 3 years with B12.

Getting weak... I think this is normal when you are switching to a completely different diet, but it shouldn't take so long. I assume that you have not eaten enough. Getting sick could also be normal as I have heard of the detoxing effect of a raw food diet. It can bring up old toxics or whatever to the surface. Also this should disappear after a while, but, depending on your former lifestyle, it could take weeks to years.

I have been completely raw for 4 months and lost 10kgs fat. Unfortunately I am not strong enough, because I like to eat also cooked food and I am not a big fan of (raw) veggies. I never felt weak. I would say even stronger. Toxic effects I couldn't discover them. Maybe I was already clean from the inside

I still do believe from what I have read that it is bullshit to be afraid of not getting enough protein. Figures like 200, 300 or even more grams protein a day.... I still do believe that the biggest part is just leaving your body with your urine. Even if you want to build muscles a balanced diet and smart training should be better than a high protein intake. But of course I am not a doctor.

On the other hand you look absolutely great, so your current diet must be perfect. Which makes me also believe, that there is no single diet fullfilling the needs of all persons. For myself I can tell, that a recommended diet of at least 3000 kcal is a big problem for me. I have followed some advices in this forum and did increase my intake. Big mistake. I am going back to 2000-2500 kcals because my body looks worse than some weeks ago I am going back to a raw basic diet with some additional cooked food.

Hi Nobbi.

I know that. But there is no doubt that i had a B12 deficiency, whatever the reason.
Before going raw, i've been vegan for 2,5 years. And i think my daily need might be slightly higher than that of a non-athlete.

Believe me, i've tried various kinds of raw-foodism. From many nuts to no nuts, from green leaves to fruits, from veggies to sprouts. Salads, mono, instinctive, eating often and a lot. I kept losing weight (and i had no fat to lose even before) and power.
And my lifestyle has always been quite healthy. I've almost never taken medicine, never drugs, alcohol or cigarettes. Only thing was my unvegan bb-diet high in animal products, but i've been vegan for 32months before the raw period, so i thought i should have been at least a bit "detoxified"

I don't claim raw food is crap, but i think it's irresponsible to promote that all you have to do is eat 100% raw, then all is well.

Maybe you're right i didn't eat enough, but it's hard for me getting enough calories even on a vegan diet, let alone on raw food! I'm 186cm and 86kg, i have a basic calory need of ~2'400 calories, and the heavy weights add at least another 1'000. Try to eat that all raw!

Of course, most raw foodists don't believe in the calory-theory, granted.
I myself think that the higher the quality of your food and the better your digestion (and absorption) is, the less you need.


One thing has got nothing to do with the other, sadly. I know people who eat only junk and still look great. Just look at the pro's.


I guess that is true
And not even a single diet for the same person for all times in his/her life, you have to adjust as you go through stages of your life, meet different conditions etc.

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No one said it would be easy.

That's definitly a very good point, too!