Jump to content

the cartoons about islam / muhammad


Richard
 Share

Recommended Posts

http://memri.org/bin/latestnews.cgi?ID=SD108806

Hassan Nasrallah: "If any Muslim had carried out the fatwa of Imam Khomeini against the apostate Salman Rushdie, those despicable people would not have dared to insult the Prophet Muhammad - not in Denmark, not in Norway, and not in France.

 

"What is this solidarity campaign all about? We are supposed to summon the ambassador, and that's it? We are supposed to boycott Danish goods, and that's it? No. I call upon the Muslim jurisprudents, the Muslim religious scholars, the leaders of the Islamic movements, the leaders of the Islamic countries, and all the Muslims to take a decisive stand. If we tolerate this now, only God knows what they will do later - just like the tolerance practiced with Salman Rushdie, and the carrying out of the fatwa.

 

"Today, we need to take a different position regarding Denmark, if it doesn't take care of this matter, and regarding Norway, if it does not take care of this matter, and regarding France, if it does not take care of this matter. On this matter, we are not Lebanese, Syrians, Palestinians, Egyptians, Saudis, Malaysians, or Indonesians. This is about the Prophet of the Muslims, the Prophet of 1.4 billion Muslims. I am certain that not only millions but hundreds of millions of Muslims are ready and willing to sacrifice their lives in order to defend the honor of their Prophet. And you are among them."

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 58
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

I think we can all agree that this matter doesn't look good. I'm sure the cartoons were used as "petrol on fire", to start what was already waiting to happen.

 

I've heard that some radicals have actually spread other cartoons, more offensive than the Danish ones, to instigate crowds even further.

 

As an atheist, I find all this very difficult to understand. Regardless of faith or religion, I feel that the matter has been blown out of propotion and that it will surely be used politically, now and for years to come.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I appreciate taking values & beleifs seriously -- hell, I take my vegan values seriously & I do not like people poking fun of something that I think is a very solemn, ethical issue. But to become violent because of it? To kill someone because of it?

 

My convictions are not so fragile that I cannot tolerate another's criticisim or mockery of them. And they are especially not so fragile that I would violate them simply to retaliate.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well, I don't agree with that. No one can choose what race/ethinicity they are. You can choose what ideology/philosophy you follow. Racism is wrong. But criticizing ideologies is not. I don't think the two are the same. I can say that catholicism is a potentially violent religion and give plenty of reasons and as a result a person can choose to not be a catholic. A person can't choose to not be an arab, etc. So I don't think the two are the same at all.

 

So then should Free Speech have certain limits to it? You think that its wrong, just as others think its wrong to criticize ideologies. Muslims believe that everyone was born Muslim. Also, most of these people didn't choose it, they were born with it because their parents forced it on them, therefore it's pretty much as if it is them and they had no choice on the matter.

 

You think racism is wrong, but that right there goes against the idea of Free Speech. What you think is wrong, someone thinks is right. What they think is right (ie Islam or protesting they way they are) you think it is wrong. Pretty confusing matter which generally has no right or wrong answers either way you try to look at it.

 

OK, then you disagree that the violence has anything to do with Muhammed. You have a right to have such an opinion just like the cartoonist had a right to an opinion. My opinion is it's a little of both.

 

THe thing is, how do you know that a lot of what is going on is Muhammed teachings or not? You just see Muslims acting out, and you automatically assume it was from Muhammed, even though it could have been a fatwa that was dictated out. However, even some Muslims would say that a lot of such things is true (such as killing apostates of Islam). I actually had a Muslim tell me that, "If I lived in the time of Muhammed, I would beg for forgiveness", because I am not Sunni and I don't regard the Hadith as an authentic source. He claimed (and even in Hadiths it says) that those who are apostates (turn away from the fold of Islam) should be killed. Even though I claim myself a Muslim, read the Qu'ran, I don't read the Hadith and that is why he said such things. Reasons why I agree to point that a lot of the stereotypes are true. My problem is the way they went about it.

 

I didn't realize it was that low. But I think most people have an assumptiong of Muslim = Arab (even though it's not true). And a lot of people right now are trying to say criticism of Islam is racism who would never say criticism of christianity is racism.

 

BTW, I was an arabic linguist in the Air Force for 6 years. Not that that means I'm really all that knowledgeable about arabic culture. I was subject to a lot of propaganda to dehumanize "the enemy."

 

Speaking of Christianity, majority of the Arabs in the United States are Arabs. Also, Egypt has a Christian following since a long time ago called the Coptic Church.

 

The assumption of "Muslim = Arab" is one of those stereotypes that I mentioned that are false, while there are some that have a good reason (such as other racial stereotypes like I gave on Koreans). Actually, a lot of the people that America thinks are the "Arab Profile" are actually Bengalis and other South East Asians, which are not even close to Arabs at all.

 

Also, I find it cool that you were an Arabic Linguist, I never would have guessed! Does that mean you can also read and write Arabic? That propaganda stuff, happens on both sides of the fence. America is "Stop the Terrorists!" and the Extremists are "Stop the Infideles!" Man that's cool stuff Jay!

 

Yeah, I don't think the cartoons will really accomplish much good. I just think it starts a slippery slope where other far more reasoned criticisms will next get targeted. Like anyone in the west protesting the treatment of women in Pakistan or Saudi Arabia. Like this organization here does: http://www.now.org/ They do a lot of protesting unequal treatment of women in the ME. Maybe some/more Muslims will start sending them death threats and worse if they get more affirmation that violence works.

 

Now that would really suck. I think that they probably do get death threats. I think that the way that you go about your protest is a big deal as to the impact that it will cause. The cartoons, since a lot of Muslims are really serious with Islam, is really due to cause more harm than good. A lot of Muslims are serious with their religion (even though they might not even practice it whole heartedly. Ironic huh?) compared to that of the majority of Christians. Not that Christians aren't serious, but Muslims are just one step further in terms of taking offense.

 

Well things are definitely going to get worse but in the long run I don't think the cartoons will really have a lot to do with it. The ME is run by dictators. A lot of the people don't live in very good conditions. The West helped put these dictators into place and are helping maintain them. Now the US attacks Iraq and has killed tens of thousands of civilians. Plus the whole Israel thing. Things aren't going very well at all.

 

Ya, I think that the US had a say in A LOT of things. Such as how they financed Bin Laden on the FBI payroll. Also the same as in South America. Yet, they are able to call other people terrorists, geesh.

 

I don't know how the Middle East will change, I hope it does though.

 

Well, maybe I just don't know what I'm talking about but I'm under the impression that the treatment of women in some Islamic nations is the worst in the world. I'm not aware of any primarily non-islamic nation as bad.

 

There are also really bad Hindu treatments of women, where some of them burn the women because they could not bare a son. Not negating that a lot of these "Islamic Countries" need some changing, but I am just saying that it is all over, in all beliefs.

 

The media tends to focus on just that one issue in regards to women. A lot of Muslims I know take care and revere their women. Not sure the ratio of the two, but I am just stating that it is not just Islam that has that problem.

 

I think part of the reason that things aren't the same today with christianity as it was hundreds of years ago, is that some people dared to speak out against it. One of my favorite writers is Voltaire. He wrote a lot of stuff ridiculing christianity. I think he influenced a lot of people to turn away from it. He also was attacked. Spent time in jail. Almost killed, etc. Spent time fleeing from persecution, etc. I can't say for certain but if there weren't people like him back then, I wonder if we'd still be having inquisitions today.

 

I really like Voltaire, he has some good statements. I haven't seen it where he poked fun at the church however. Reason why I think if they wanted to make a statement on Islam, they didn't need to resort to Cartoons. The first impression that I get is mockery. It's pretty obvious that a lot of other people would view it this way as well, be it Islam or not.

 

Well, this is something different. Like I've said I doubt the cartoons did any good. It's just the basic idea behind free speech that I'm arguing for. Maybe the Danish newspaper originally made a mistake in printing them. It can be argued their decision wasn't a good one. But I don't think their should be legislation making their actions illegal or anything like that. And I think now it's not good if violence results in the these fundamentalist succeeding in further censorship.

 

I agree as well. I think that it shouldn't be made illegal, but just have discretion on your actions before doing them.

 

I'm all for free speech. But when it's going to insight anger, sometimes you have to think twice. The medium in which they chose is the reason that I do not approve of what they did. If they had gone another route, then I would be all for it. Not saying that it should get censored at all, just my personal opinion on it. Just because of these cartoons, people are dying. If they took another route, maybe it would have been less or nil.

 

I think that a lot of this is like our own vegan movement. Sometimes you have to be careful on how you present something, as it might create a setback rather than a step forward.

 

Good response Jay

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

Exactly as he stated. Now, they will not tolerate any such things at all, which may lead to WW3.

 

 

 

 

I think we can all agree that this matter doesn't look good. I'm sure the cartoons were used as "petrol on fire", to start what was already waiting to happen.

 

I've heard that some radicals have actually spread other cartoons, more offensive than the Danish ones, to instigate crowds even further.

 

As an atheist, I find all this very difficult to understand. Regardless of faith or religion, I feel that the matter has been blown out of propotion and that it will surely be used politically, now and for years to come.

 

Yup, no one thinks it is good.

 

As far as them spreading it around, perhaps these are the people that are anti west and want to do all that is possible to bring it down.

 

I agree too that it was blown out of proportion, but since this has happened, I think it's going to make people think twice.

 

Wait, maybe not. I remember hearing that a Governor (or politician) in Italy wore a shirt with the cartoon on it. I doubt it was to represent free speech at all, but due to this, if there was an attack on the Olympics, would that have been worth it?

 

 

 

 

I appreciate taking values & beleifs seriously -- hell, I take my vegan values seriously & I do not like people poking fun of something that I think is a very solemn, ethical issue. But to become violent because of it? To kill someone because of it?

 

My convictions are not so fragile that I cannot tolerate another's criticisim or mockery of them. And they are especially not so fragile that I would violate them simply to retaliate.

 

Same here. Sadly, they can't.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think it's pretty ridiculous to get upset over a cartoon. But lots of people feel differently and get very upset over cartoons, and that's just the way it is. So I don't see why people go out of their way to make offensive cartoons, unless they just like to spend their lives dealing with people who get upset over cartoons.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

So then should Free Speech have certain limits to it? You think that its wrong, just as others think its wrong to criticize ideologies. Muslims believe that everyone was born Muslim. Also, most of these people didn't choose it, they were born with it because their parents forced it on them, therefore it's pretty much as if it is them and they had no choice on the matter.

Well I don't think that means the ideology is beyond criticism. (People being forced or scared into believing it.)

 

You think racism is wrong, but that right there goes against the idea of Free Speech. What you think is wrong, someone thinks is right. What they think is right (ie Islam or protesting they way they are) you think it is wrong. Pretty confusing matter which generally has no right or wrong answers either way you try to look at it.

I think that speech which has the purpose of inciting violence is wrong. I think with racist speech it's clear the only goal can be to incite violence. It isn't always clear what the goal of speech is though.

 

THe thing is, how do you know that a lot of what is going on is Muhammed teachings or not? You just see Muslims acting out, and you automatically assume it was from Muhammed, even though it could have been a fatwa that was dictated out. However, even some Muslims would say that a lot of such things is true (such as killing apostates of Islam). I actually had a Muslim tell me that, "If I lived in the time of Muhammed, I would beg for forgiveness", because I am not Sunni and I don't regard the Hadith as an authentic source. He claimed (and even in Hadiths it says) that those who are apostates (turn away from the fold of Islam) should be killed. Even though I claim myself a Muslim, read the Qu'ran, I don't read the Hadith and that is why he said such things. Reasons why I agree to point that a lot of the stereotypes are true. My problem is the way they went about it.

I think any religion that has an eternal heaven and hell combined with some contradictory teachings (some violence/some pacifism or peacefulness) is going to result in some people acting violently.

 

Speaking of Christianity, majority of the Arabs in the United States are Arabs. Also, Egypt has a Christian following since a long time ago called the Coptic Church.

Yes, my Arabic teachers were mostly christians from Egypt.

 

The assumption of "Muslim = Arab" is one of those stereotypes that I mentioned that are false, while there are some that have a good reason (such as other racial stereotypes like I gave on Koreans). Actually, a lot of the people that America thinks are the "Arab Profile" are actually Bengalis and other South East Asians, which are not even close to Arabs at all.

 

Also, I find it cool that you were an Arabic Linguist, I never would have guessed! Does that mean you can also read and write Arabic? That propaganda stuff, happens on both sides of the fence. America is "Stop the Terrorists!" and the Extremists are "Stop the Infideles!" Man that's cool stuff Jay!

No big deal. It's been 9 years since I really used it. And I've never lived among arabs so I was never very good at it.

 

Ya, I think that the US had a say in A LOT of things. Such as how they financed Bin Laden on the FBI payroll. Also the same as in South America. Yet, they are able to call other people terrorists, geesh.

Yeah Africa also. Most people have no idea about these things sadly.

 

There are also really bad Hindu treatments of women, where some of them burn the women because they could not bare a son. Not negating that a lot of these "Islamic Countries" need some changing, but I am just saying that it is all over, in all beliefs.

Yeah India does some stuff too. I suppose China has problems too. Dowry stuff, etc.

 

The media tends to focus on just that one issue in regards to women. A lot of Muslims I know take care and revere their women. Not sure the ratio of the two, but I am just stating that it is not just Islam that has that problem.

OK.

 

I really like Voltaire, he has some good statements. I haven't seen it where he poked fun at the church however.

Yeah he even used to sign his letters "Écrasez l'Infâme" which meant crush the infamy, and by "infamy" he meant christianity.

 

Reason why I think if they wanted to make a statement on Islam, they didn't need to resort to Cartoons. The first impression that I get is mockery. It's pretty obvious that a lot of other people would view it this way as well, be it Islam or not.

Sure cartoons aren't such a good way. But some people are cartoonists.

 

I agree as well. I think that it shouldn't be made illegal, but just have discretion on your actions before doing them.

 

I'm all for free speech. But when it's going to insight anger, sometimes you have to think twice. The medium in which they chose is the reason that I do not approve of what they did. If they had gone another route, then I would be all for it. Not saying that it should get censored at all, just my personal opinion on it. Just because of these cartoons, people are dying. If they took another route, maybe it would have been less or nil.

 

I think that a lot of this is like our own vegan movement. Sometimes you have to be careful on how you present something, as it might create a setback rather than a step forward.

 

Good response Jay

OK, good talking to you Kollision.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

So I don't see why people go out of their way to make offensive cartoons, unless they just like to spend their lives dealing with people who get upset over cartoons.

 

Exactly what my view on this is.

 

 

 

 

 

I think that speech which has the purpose of inciting violence is wrong. I think with racist speech it's clear the only goal can be to incite violence. It isn't always clear what the goal of speech is though.

 

But then free speech is free speech. I don't think it's right either, but gotta bear with it.

 

I think any religion that has an eternal heaven and hell combined with some contradictory teachings (some violence/some pacifism or peacefulness) is going to result in some people acting violently.

 

Even ones with pacfisim is going to have violence, oddly enough. People are able to "justify" their beliefs, even if it is beyond the scope of a certain philosophy.

 

Yes, my Arabic teachers were mostly christians from Egypt.

 

That's cool, not many people know that fact, which is the reason that a lot of arabs out here were terrorized by americans.

 

No big deal. It's been 9 years since I really used it. And I've never lived among arabs so I was never very good at it.

 

Do you know what type of arabic they taught you? Like how here we sound different from those in england.

 

Yeah Africa also. Most people have no idea about these things sadly.

 

Yup, rarely hear anything about Africa. Even that concert for Africa was to just "raise awareness". No money was sent there at all, and the celebrities still got gift bags.

 

Yeah India does some stuff too. I suppose China has problems too. Dowry stuff, etc.

 

Never heard about China, all I know is there are wayyy too many people there and they dump the girl babies since they can only have 1 and they want it to be a male.

 

Yeah he even used to sign his letters "Écrasez l'Infâme" which meant crush the infamy, and by "infamy" he meant christianity.

 

Christianity as a whole or just the christianity that was being preached? For example, a lot of the religions today aren't even being followed, but are misconstrued to their own purpose. Religion today seems nothing more than power.

 

Sure cartoons aren't such a good way. But some people are cartoonists.

 

Again, like I said, it's all a matter of discretion. I heard from someone that he had an interview and said that they did a cartoon with Jesus on the Cross with money coming out of his mouth.

 

OK, good talking to you Kollision. Smile

 

Nice talking Jay.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Even ones with pacfisim is going to have violence, oddly enough. People are able to "justify" their beliefs, even if it is beyond the scope of a certain philosophy.

As long as they have a heaven and hell.

 

Do you know what type of arabic they taught you? Like how here we sound different from those in england.

The modern standard or "educated" verion. The sort that would be used in newspapers. It was during the Gulf war in 1990 and they skipped teaching us a dialect. The dialects have pretty big differences. Much more so than US versus England. Say Libya versus Iraq is just totally different. I couldn't comprehend Iraqi at all.

 

Christianity as a whole or just the christianity that was being preached? For example, a lot of the religions today aren't even being followed, but are misconstrued to their own purpose. Religion today seems nothing more than power.

Well both. He criticized the bible a lot.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Please sign in to comment

You will be able to leave a comment after signing in



Sign In Now
 Share




×
×
  • Create New...