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 Post subject: what is up with these other vegan websites??
PostPosted: Sat Jun 18, 2005 4:51 am 
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Stegosaurus

Joined: Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm
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Hi guys,

man I have tried posting to a few other veg websites lately, and it seems that all I have encountered are peta hating animal rights activists who think that the world would be a better place if peta would vanish. Some of these people do not even wish to explain there feelings, and have given me the impression that they are not really interested in explaining anything to me because they are tired of life, or sick of talking about peta, or whatever. :x Of course, I am not referring to anybody that posts both here and there. Every single person that I have interacted with on vegan bodybuilding has been warm, kind, sincere and patient. I love this website. No other vegan website can compare to the positive energy that is felt here. This website is like my cyberspace home.

Geeze, what is up with people these days?

This atmosphere, this family, this team here at vegan bodybuilding is the best. :D I have never felt more welcome and accepted and safer than I do when I am here. You guys here all rock, and this is by far the best, and most welcoming website ever. I think that the warmth and patience on this website will go a longer way in helping animals.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jun 18, 2005 5:15 am 
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Elephant

Joined: Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm
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Wait....THe vegans on those sites are against peta?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jun 18, 2005 10:18 pm 
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Site Admin
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Location: Austin, TX
Hey Natalie,

Thanks for the comments about our group, I love it too. I've become "friends" with a bunch of people from this online group and veganbodybuilding.com.

Which other websites are you referring to? I'd like to take a look at some of them.

There seem to be many versions of vegans these days; lots of different types of vegans out there.

Have a great day, I'm short on sleep again (as I've been all week, so I better get going).

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jun 18, 2005 11:42 pm 
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Stegosaurus

Joined: Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm
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Hi Koll and Rob,

Oops - I actually am only talking about one website and it is one which many of you, including you Rob, visit. Some of you have come from there. Talking about veganfitness.net. NOw I am not saying that the WHOLE site is bad, and that everybody on it is questionable. That is CERTAINLY note the case. But based on my interaction with a few people, they are anti-PETA vegans. That is their perogative, I guess, but my frustration is when people make utterly preposterous statements like

"Most PETA campaigns are ANTI-ANIMAL" without bothering to back this up with any substantiation or examples :x :x :x !!!!!!!!!!!.

AAnd, like I have said many times, when vegans fight amoing themselves, and attack organizations that try to help animals like PETA, it is the ANIMALS THAT PAY THE ULTIMATE PRICE. Frankly, I think it is totally counterpoductive and detrimental to attack a major force in the movement like PETA. Why would any vegan behave in a manner that threatens to weaken the movement? NO PETA = a weakened animal rights movement. NO PETA = less pressure on multinational animal exploiting industries to keep their exploitation of animals in somewhat of a check. NO PETA = me and countless others still eating animals (since it was PETA who first opened my eyes to the issue of animal rights).

The way I figure it, PETA has enough enemies in the the big agri-business and the vivisection industries that are trying to weaken and ultimately dismantle it. Animal rights activisists, vegetarians and vegans should certainly not be facilitating their attempts :!: :!: :!: :!: :!: :!: :!: :!: :!:

Without PETA, the world would be a much crueller place for animals. Apparently, though, not every activist sees it this way :?: :?: :?:


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jun 18, 2005 11:51 pm 
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Elephant

Joined: Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm
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Probably when they see that they take videos of skinning the minks alive for example and they just standing there and doing nothing, then they are anti animal.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jun 19, 2005 9:45 pm 
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Elephant
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Location: Norfolk, VA
Peta has its good points, and it also has its bad points, so personally I can't choose to have issues with people who don't agree with them. Many vegans prefer to take a different approach to reach people than the peta campaigns. Everyone does what they can in their own way. Just because they don't agree with PETA doesnt make them bad vegans or bad people in general. Everyone over on veganfitness is pretty cool, and I've read the Peta threads on there, it didnt seem like anyone was fighting among eachother, and I dont think you were being attacked, a few people just have strong opinions on the subject. Don't worry about it Nat, everyone is doing their part, and none of them are trying to bring down Peta pr anything they just have different methods. PETA is definately and excellent resource with some good campaigns , and they've helped alot of people go vegan, and they send me free stickers, but just because I'm a vegan I dont have to agree with everything they say. But I am glad you are happy on these boards because I agree with you, everyone is great over here. Please dont think I was criticizing you or anything, cause thats not my intention.

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 Post subject: PETA
PostPosted: Mon Jun 20, 2005 12:19 am 
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Elephant

Joined: Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm
Posts: 2783
Well some vegans like myself could be mad over PETA's compromising stance with KFC. They are pushing for KFC to institute more humane ways of treating and killing their chickens. The end result is the same even with the improved ways. I am not sure about Engrid Newkirk but I think PETA has strayed way from what she envisioned, I am not sure how. If anyone can elaborate on that it would be great. Though as chesty pointed out they are a group in the spotlight fighting for animals and that should be appreciated by all vegans. Some people I know dont like people throwing paint on fur, even though I support property rights I dont mind this form of protest against fur.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jun 20, 2005 3:26 am 
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Elephant

Joined: Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm
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I dont disagree with that form of protest either CollegeB. If they can purchase that garment and allow an animal to go through that pain and torture, then paint is the least of their worries.

As for the KFC stance, even though I am a vegan and wish others were as well, I am totally not against eating animals (just me). I dont think the concept of it (for survival reasons) is wrong, but the way it is conducted (with carelessness and cruelty) and the fact that they are not needed to survive. This is the reason I think everyone should be vegan, but they let their selfishness get in their way. Back in old times, I would think it would be okay if it was done humanely and with gratitude. Now, there is just no need to eat animals. We take for granted what we have. If I had the chance Id rather eat man flesh than animal flesh, for the mere fact that the animals havent done anything to deserve death. Thats just my opinion.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jun 20, 2005 7:05 am 
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Stegosaurus

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Hi Ash. I would never take anything you say personally. I know you too well now for that. :D

College B and Kollision. I too TOTALLY agree with throwing paint, etc. I would go a step further than you, College B, and argue that I do NOT believe in respect for property rights where that property is animal killing machinery.

As far as PETA's stragety concerning KFC which most vegans seem to be criticizing PETA for, here is what I have said on the other forum:

To say that PETA is stopping people from going vegan is simply inaccurate. It is because of PETA that I am an aspiring vegan. I am sure I am not an isolated case. And I might also add that it is because of PETA that I am an activist, and that I have managed to distribute thousands (literally) of leafletss, including PETA's "What's wrong with Meat" flyers and "What's wrong with Dairy" flyers, which state, under the heading "What you can do" our important message - GO VEGAN - FOR LIFE! For a free vegetarian starter kit, call ...bla bla bla." That is all these flyers say. They don't say "buy free range eggs" or "buy organic meats", and then tack on at the end as a token gesture (to use your words), go vegetarian. The message is clear - GO VEGAN - FOR LIFE, says PETA. Again, thankfuly PETA sends me this flyers for free and I always leave a trail of these wherever I go, whether on the subway, in a lecure hall at school, library, wherever.

YOU say that PETA should simply assert "WE want no cages at all" and its failure to do so calls into question PETA's integrity. The fact of the matter is, what happens until we do eventually eliminate ALL cages? PETA, in addressing this sticky problem, says: "WE want no cages at all, but until that happens, we demand smaller cages NOW!!" I am sympathetic to this. Let me give an example as to why.

I have always felt that when faced with a difficult problem, an earnest way of comg as close to the "truth" or the "right solution" as possible is to try to put yourself in the other being's shoes. So, I am going to put myself in the shoes of a KFC chicken. I live in a KFC factory, and I am scheduled to die a grizzly and horrifying death, say next Friday. What do I, the KFC chicken that is going to die a brutal death in less than a week, want PETA to do? How can PETA help me?

The way I see, the options are as follows:

1) For at least 30% of the world (to use your figure) to go vegan before next Friday (my scheduled execution date). This just is not going to happen, in a week, as I am sure you will agree. I (both the person and the chicken), as well as PETA, wish more than anything that it would, but isn't. You know it, I know it and PETA knows it. And we are all very frustrated by it.

2) For somebody to raid the KFC factory and smuggle me and my fellow chickens out of there and into a safe haven. Again, unlikely to happen.

Okay, so the above two options are not going to help me, the KFC chicken living in the hear and now and scheduled to die next week. So what would I want PETA to do to help me? Well, since it doesn't look like I am going to emancipated before my scheduled execution, the next best thing for me, the chicken in the here and now scheduled to die next Friday, would be to spend the remainder of my days in less miserable conditions and to experience a less horrific death.

Honestly, isn't that what you would want if you were this KFC chicken?

That is what PETA does. It maintains an active and ongoing vegan outreach program to emancipate future KFC (and other chickens), but, due to the current state of affairs, is also compelled to negotiate with KFC to at least improve the conditions for me, the chicken that is scheduled to die next Friday and is virtually impossible to get emancipated before then.

Is it wrong of PETA to want to make the life of me (the chicken) less miserable? I do not think so. Put yourself in the animals shoes. Do you at least understand where I am coming from here? SO, in response to your's and Dave's "Peta is anti-animal" criticism, my rebuttal is: I think the chicken in my hypothetical above would disagree with both of you, and so do I.

YOu also say that campaigning along welfarist lines have gotten us nowhere. Again, that is unduly harsh. Revlon and Avon , for example, stopped testing on animals due to pressure from animal rights people, many of which took a welfarist approach in their advocacy. If they had taken an extreme position with Revlon, like "make sure your products are all vegan too," then I suspect that the animal activists would not have gotten very far with these companies and that many of them would still be testing on animals.

All I am saying is that the "correct" or "most effective" trajectory is not as obvious as many of you are suggesting. The issues are anything but black and white. I hear and understand what you are saying - young kids are getting the wrong message, the public is getting confused, etc. Some of PETA's campaigns are backfiring because meat eaters are feeling LESS guilty when supporting these animal killers. But what is PETA to do? Sacrifice the "welfare " of animals in factory farms and slaughterhouses in the here and now that are unlikely to be emancipated, for the sake of minimizing or eliminating any potential misunderstandings? That is a tough call indeed, wouldn't you say? Either way, it is going to suck for the animals, at least in the immediate future.


My feeling, then, is that PETA has good intentions and does the best it can under the shittiest of circs. Although you clearly agree with PETA's philosophy - that animals our not ours to eat, wear, etc. - you disagree with the way PETA is going about trying to make that philosophy mainstream. And that is certainly your perogative. But I believe that PETA deserves the benefit of all doubt, and that its commitment and love for animals is not a pretense for something else. To suggest otherwise because one does not agree with PETA's strategy to effect change is unduly harsh in my opinion.

Unfortunately, most people are not going to metamorphisize from being KFC customers to vegans in one sweeping gallop. They just aren't. In these cases, baby steps - raising consciousness one little step at a time - appears to be the most realistic and promising course of action. I think PETA is wise to have recognized this and to strategically be more welfarist and less revolutionary where it feels that that is the wisest course of action under the particular circumstances.


So, I ask any of you here that disagrees with PETA's KFC campaign this question, and would appreciate your honest answer:

If you were the KFC chicken doomed to be slaughtered next week, what would you want a huge organization with some leverage like PETA to do?

I anxiously await EVERY vegan's answer to this difficult question. if you do not know what the solution should be, but acknowledge that the issues are more difficult than vegan critics of PETA contend, then please state so. if you think I have failed to consider another option for these poor kfc chickens scheduled for an inhumane form of slaughter next week, by all means highlight my oversight. If you feel that we should just sacrifice the welfare of the currently enslaved and cramped up chickens for the greater good of all future emancipated chickens, then just openly admit it (but, remember that it is easy for you to say because it ain't your ass on the killing line next week).


This should make for a very long thread, but a very interesting one too. :)


Last edited by compassionategirl on Sun Aug 07, 2005 2:17 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jun 20, 2005 6:30 pm 
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Elephant
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Joined: Mon May 23, 2005 11:05 pm
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Location: Maryland, USA
Just a thought while this tread continues:

Choosing the laws that you will or will not follow can get you jailed. Illegal activity will make AR people look like zealots then no one will listen.

I personally don't think illegal activities should be advocated on the message board.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jun 20, 2005 7:12 pm 
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Elephant

Joined: Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm
Posts: 1448
SeaSiren wrote:
Just a thought while this tread continues:

Choosing the laws that you will or will not follow can get you jailed. Illegal activity will make AR people look like zealots then no one will listen.

I personally don't think illegal activities should be advocated on the message board.


Thats why some people dont like PETA. I condone it though. Its like a Revolution or a War. THat is illegal, but its for the better.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2005 10:07 pm 
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Elephant
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Location: florida
Most ethical vegetarians I've met in person support PETA or any other organization that works for animal welfare, animal rights, etc. But a lot of people on internet message boards seem to have a "my way or the highway" attitude --- if PETA doesn't do everything exactly the way they like, then they'll bash them. I think the internet just attracts a lot of "glass is half empty" type people who look for the bad in things.

You make a good point about veganbodybuilding.com though - it seems like a positive forum with lots of people with good energy.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2005 10:32 am 
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Manatee
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SeaSiren wrote:
Just a thought while this tread continues:

Choosing the laws that you will or will not follow can get you jailed. Illegal activity will make AR people look like zealots then no one will listen.

I personally don't think illegal activities should be advocated on the message board.


Getting arrested is often the point.

Civil disobedience is a highly effective tool.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2005 8:20 pm 
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Rabbit

Joined: Sat May 14, 2005 3:53 pm
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I'm not a huge fan of peta myself. I prefer the vegan outreach and humane society. But that's just my opinion :)


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2005 9:09 pm 
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Elephant

Joined: Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm
Posts: 1448
WSPA (World Society for the Protection of Animals) is good as well.


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