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 Post subject: Re: 7 Billion People By The End Of 2011
PostPosted: Fri Jan 28, 2011 6:48 pm 
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Gorilla
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And no, I don't want to live in crowded megacity. Actually, I don't want cities to exist at all. If you ask me, I am for complete destroying of cities. People should have their own peace of land and grow their food in permaculture, instead working on stupid jobs. Work as we know it today and money should be abolished. We need to abolish civilization in genral. I personally quit my very well paid job few years ago and now I am living a very modest and peaceful life. I am not buying fancy clothes, spending my money on useless things, I don't have a car, and frankly I don't need those things to make me happy. I have a part time job (as a journalist) to earn money for food and nothing more. I also have my small peace of land and currently I am learning how to grow my food and sustain myself, step by step. I hope one day I will be able to abolish use of money and disconnect from the society in total. There is enough land for everybody. But most of the land is owned by big corporations that own food and that want people to think there is scarcity of food so they could raise prices. Poverty and food scarcity has nothing to do with overpopulation. I live in Serbia, the country that has less and less people, but at the same time there is more and more hungry and poor people. Just for comparison, during socialistic times in former Yugoslavia, which btw were 100 times better then what we have now in "democratic" system - we had more people, but none of them was hungry. So, poverty is not about the population, it is about the system and distribution of goods.

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 Post subject: Re: 7 Billion People By The End Of 2011
PostPosted: Fri Jan 28, 2011 10:06 pm 
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Stegosaurus
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Vege;

It is not my intention to offend you, I respect you. I disagree with your beliefs. I think your solutions are highly unlikely to happen. Your ideas scare me because I have a fear other people will listen to them and as a result maybe not consider the changes that will matter. Population issues aren't just about space, food and money. It is about the quality of life and the quality of the planet. The rate of progression is also going up dramatically. At some point of several horrible things will happen as a potential results, which I am deeply afraid of. Maybe I will be dead by then, but I feel I have a strong stake in it.

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 Post subject: Re: 7 Billion People By The End Of 2011
PostPosted: Fri Jan 28, 2011 10:17 pm 
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Yeah, I'd had a long reply written out to some of these statements that I have a strong disagreement with, but in the end, I have deleted it because this thread needs little help getting further off topic or assistance getting out of control :wink:

I'll simply echo much of what beforewisdom said - while I respect a varying opinion such as Vege's, I completely disagree on almost everything. That'll do nicely enough :)

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 Post subject: Re: 7 Billion People By The End Of 2011
PostPosted: Sat Jan 29, 2011 1:58 am 
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Gorilla
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ok, let's get back to the topic, although I don't see it going off topic at all... I just introduced some new points in this debate, like consumerism, which I think is to blame for poverty AND for environmental issues we are having. But if you want to make this discussion to be only like: "how to make those Chinese and Indian people to have less children", then OK... My point is that we need to abolish consumerism, and that problem is not Chinese or Indian people having more children, the problem is that they all want to consume as much as Americans or Europeans, which is OVERconsuming, and in fact the real threat to the planet. We need to fight consumerism and capitalism.
Suggested reading:
http://www.theecologist.org/Interviews/ ... ction.html

and some "off topic" ideas :D
http://www.johnzerzan.net

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 Post subject: Re: 7 Billion People By The End Of 2011
PostPosted: Sat Jan 29, 2011 3:08 pm 
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Gorilla
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2097 wrote:
It's too late for ANARCHISM. No government? No police? = Sexual rape/murder/crimes/etc... to the extreme.

The blame for poverty is the leaders of banks/corporations. The Bilderberg Group. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bilderberg_Group

As for overpopulation. More exercise activities NEED to be implemented by the communities for FREE so people are using all that sexual energy towards physical activities instead of sex.

Does China or India have a national sport? and martial arts doesn't count...not much energy burnt.


Ok, I totally agree on Bilderberg group.
But I really wonder how do you come to such thoughts about peole in India and China not practicing enough sport?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sport_in_India
and btw. bodybuilding originated in India
http://www.coachsformula.com/img_scroller/bb_his.html

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 Post subject: Re: 7 Billion People By The End Of 2011
PostPosted: Sat Jan 29, 2011 3:37 pm 
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Stegosaurus
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vege wrote:
We need to fight consumerism and capitalism.


Personally, I like having stuff, living on the essentials for mere existence alone doesn't make me happy, and I'm not planning on martyring myself for "the greater good" by avoiding non-essentials completely. You'll have a hard time convincing the bulk of the world to give up their modern conveniences simply because a small portion of the population blames their purchasing on the downfall of the earth. Consumerism isn't inherently bad so long as it doesn't dictate one's life and so long as amassing tons of crap isn't the only reason for getting out of bed in the morning. Is it wrong that people in other nations are starting to WANT more than they've had in the past? Are they bad people because they see what other nations have and wish to know what it's like to have those same things? Do we simply tell them "tough luck, it's too late for you to move forward now, because we have to think of the planet while ignoring your own wants and needs"? Is it wrong that, say, people in China who at one time were never able to afford more than what they needed to get through the day now have money to buy more, and in turn, they can live at a higher standard? Who dictates what is "enough" without it being an infringement on the rights of people to live and do as they please? It becomes a slippery slope once you start to dictate to others how YOU think the world needs to be run based on your own thoughts without consideration for how others may be living and what they may have gone through.

I'll echo it once more as I say it every time, capitalism is not bad simply because people like to say it is. EVERY system has opportunity for exploitation and corruption - socialism, communism and all those other -isms have had their fair share of flaws and problems, there is no perfect system because people are far from perfect. People are illogical, irrational, greedy, sad, angry and all sorts of things that dictate that whatever they control cannot be flawless. Not all who appreciate and partake in capitalism are exploiting the masses and not all condone exploitation. However, it has become the mantra of anti-capitalism to simply paint the entire system with one big brush of "evilness", and rather than pick apart specifics of where individuals/corporations/government were responsible for bad actions, it's easier to insist that the system is flawed and cannot work. It's not any more true than saying socialism is a terrible flop based on what's happened recently in Greece, Spain, etc., but that's how people are - irrational, insisting that the entire system is the problem rather than loopholes that get exploited by those who are genuinely not going to be working for the greater good no matter what system they're under. I can't honestly believe that a person intent on finding any way to amass their fortune is going to suddenly become a passive member of the collective under a communist regime, people are going to do what they want and find a way to make it happen in any situation. There's always an angle to play the system if you want it badly enough, regardless of how "perfect" you envision the system to be.

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 Post subject: Re: 7 Billion People By The End Of 2011
PostPosted: Sat Jan 29, 2011 3:56 pm 
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Stegosaurus
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VeganEssentials wrote:
vege wrote:
We need to fight consumerism and capitalism.


Personally, I like having stuff, living on the essentials for mere existence alone doesn't make me happy,


What about living on the vegan essentials ? :)

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 Post subject: Re: 7 Billion People By The End Of 2011
PostPosted: Sat Jan 29, 2011 5:47 pm 
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Gorilla
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2097 wrote:
Nikola Tesla should have just gotten married. Period. No AC power = no evolution.

He is my hero, the greatest scientist of 20th century. I have to love him :D :D :D My name is also Nikola, and both of us are Serbs, so :D :D :D
No, seriously, if you learn more about Nikola Tesla, you will see that AC power is only one of his many patents an discoveries: radio, remote control, etc...
He also discovered, in the beginning of the 20th century, technology for clean, wireless, endless and FREE electricity for all people on the planet, but they shut him down, laughed at him and made "mad scientist" comic character out of him, because it wasn't in the interest of rich people to make electricity free for all people, because you can't make money like that. However, the same technology, he suggested, could be used as a weapon, as famous Tesla "death ray", to destroy any flying object anywhere in the world, and to control minds of people and make weather changes, too. And, you may guess, they consider this possibility, this is more interesting and profitable then all people having free electricity. Google HAARP and Tesla for more info.
We would be lucky if at least majority of scientist would be like Tesla: working for the betterment of mankind and not for the interest of rich people, criminal pharmaceutic industry, military...

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 Post subject: Re: 7 Billion People By The End Of 2011
PostPosted: Sat Jan 29, 2011 6:19 pm 
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Gorilla
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@VeganEssentials
People were more happy when they had less. I can tell, because I've been through different stages and systems.
In socialistic times, when I was young boy we had only one brand of chocolate, one brand of milk, one brand of bread, etc. And that were REAL milk, real chocolate and real bread. No additives, no bad stuff in it, just simple, natural product. And now we have hundreds of brands, and non of the produce is good. The good produce are labeled "organic" and cost 3 times more. On the other hand, kids are getting more fat and obese. Poeple work all day long, and spend so little time with their family. Mothers used to make lunch and bake cookies from scratch to their children. Now the just give them money to buy snickers or twix.
The same with TV: we had only two channels before, one for politics, one for entertainment, and it was good. Now, I have cable TV, hundreds of channels and nothing to watch. Just commercials and hidden commercials in movies and tv shows.

My point is that variety and abundance of the consumerist society is false. Things don't make you happy at all. More free time does.

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 Post subject: Re: 7 Billion People By The End Of 2011
PostPosted: Sat Jan 29, 2011 11:09 pm 
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Stegosaurus
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beforewisdom wrote:
VeganEssentials wrote:
vege wrote:
We need to fight consumerism and capitalism.


Personally, I like having stuff, living on the essentials for mere existence alone doesn't make me happy,


What about living on the vegan essentials ? :)


As long as you include plenty of soy jerky in my essentials, I could probably give up a few other things for the cause :wink:

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 Post subject: Re: 7 Billion People By The End Of 2011
PostPosted: Sat Jan 29, 2011 11:54 pm 
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7 Billion People By The End Of 2011...

And a recent study predicted that nearly 90% of Americans will be overweight or obese by 2030...

a recent study predicted that we will need 2 earths to supply all humans by 2050

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 Post subject: Re: 7 Billion People By The End Of 2011
PostPosted: Sat Jan 29, 2011 11:56 pm 
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Stegosaurus
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Vege -

As I said, I do respect the varying opinion, but you have to consider that some of us find joy in different things. While I like sometimes having lots of free time to do as I please, as soon as I get it, I find myself wanting to be challenged again, and in turn revert back to wanting to work harder. Everyone has a different reason for getting up in the morning, and we don't all share the same vision for what will make us happy.

My family had very little for years, and when my father became very successful in his field, it opened quite a bit more up to the family and increased the standard of living quite a bit (mind you, I came long after the rest of my siblings, there's almost 20 years between myself any my oldest brother, so I was born in a more "financially fortunate" time than the others knew). They were not any more or less happy by having more "stuff", but the freedom to choose whether or not to partake in things that they could not do before was something they valued, and the fact that they came into a fair amount of money shortly before I was born didn't make the family fall apart. My family continued to stay close even after a major lifestyle shift, as the way my siblings were brought up did not allow for the accumulation of objects to overshadow who they really were and what they needed to consider to be most important. You can have a close-knit family who appreciates the simple things regardless of having lots of money or a lack thereof - money itself does not make people less close or less caring, it's upbringing and societal attitudes and how we are raised that over time are a key factor to people going in different directions and prioritizing different (sometimes the wrong) things.

On the converse side, there are many people who have little money in areas near where I live (Milwaukee), but that does not mean that they are necessarily more appreciative of the simple pleasures, nor does it mean that they're close-knit as a family unit. Simply by not having all the money and possessions that you desire does not mean you'll automatically learn that the best things in life are free. If you're rasied in a way that prioritizes money over all, you will find that money and possessions rule your existence. The ability to appreciate simple pleasures is often something that is a learned behavior, and not everyone who has little opportunity for fast financial upward mobility will accept the good in what they have Many are only mad that they don't have more, and in turn, show their anger at those who have achieved greater financial success than they have. That is not an issue of money/capitalism being inherently bad, it's a societal issue of people being rasied under the pretense that money is what is most important without solid core values being instilled as being the top priority.

I know it's a long-winded reply (as if I've ever been known for brevity :wink: ), but I think that most of what you have a grudge against is not so much the system itself, but that people have allowed themselves to prioritize money and physical possessions above all else. I agree, such an attitude is not an ideal way to live, but I do hold to the fact that I believe having many options is better than having few, one or none. We're all of our own free will, and we can be sucked into many ideologies that are harmful to ourselves, others, and the world around us - that's just a fact of life no matter where we live. Simply having fewer chances to face adversity does not one a stronger or better person, it simply means less to experience and less opportunity to change one's life in different ways. I'll always prefer to have as many choices as possible with the least interference from society, the government, and anyone else who insists that they know more about what's best for me than myself. That, my friend, is what makes me happy :wink:

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 Post subject: Re: 7 Billion People By The End Of 2011
PostPosted: Sun Jan 30, 2011 12:29 am 
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Let's not worry too much, mankind will destroy itself with a nuclear war anyway, or could eventually be unable to reproduce at all, like in the movie Children of Men.
Einstein said the 4th world war will be made with rocks and axe, because 3rd world war will already have destroyed everything and almost everybody, with atomic bombs or a new technology, chemical weapons like a deadly virus, and computer virus...
More and more couples cannot have children, 1/3 of men are impotent or their sperm is poor quality. Millions of Americans use Viagra to be able to have an erection.
With toxic chemicals in most of products everywhere, pollution in the air, soil and water that increase numbers of cancers, endocrine disruptors that make women become men and vice-versa and men have smaller penises, and gmo's and nano-particles that will make god only knows what.

A blog about endocrine disruptors. http://xenoestrogens.blogspot.com/
"decreasing sperm count in men all over the world, as well as the fact that the sperm men do produce have more incidents of mutations and are not as healthy as sperm studied 50 years ago."

Everyone should read this article : http://nightly.net/topic/59562-pollution-cuases-smaller-penises/

Watch this amazing parody of a scene from Woody Allen's "everything you always wanted to know about sex but were afraid to ask"

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 Post subject: Re: 7 Billion People By The End Of 2011
PostPosted: Sun Jan 30, 2011 1:49 am 
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Gorilla
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@ VeganEssentials

I also respect what you say. I know that lack of money can be a problem, too -especially if person stays in the same consumerist matrix. Lots of poor and angry people out there. Same for the rich ones - people would expect that rich people are happy, but many of them are not, they always want something else, or more then they already have... I don't say money itself makes you unhappy, money is just the tool of the consumerist society. I occasionally make some (relatively) big money buy selling my artworks, and I do enjoy spending it (or let's be honest, paying my debts), but it never takes all of me. I just spend it as fast as I can, and get back to the modest life I had before. I never have motivation to put all of myself in one activity (even in making art) in order to make more and more money. I think time is too precious to be wasted working. Creativity is other thing, I don't consider it working, it is pleasure and passion. But you can't be creative in todays companies. Maybe there are few out there where you can, but generally, todays jobs are boring. Yes, you can find temporary "creativity" and "joy of working" in competitiveness, but it is not the genuine creativity. This doesn't make people happy. Make yourself look better then others, be the best. I think compassion and modesty makes you happy. I myself don't think that people are wicked by their nature, i think that all people are good and kind in their core, but the society makes them bad. I don't think anarchy would bring raping, murders, etc. I think it will give freedom to people to be who they really are, god's children (I'm an anarchist who belive in God :lol: , that is why i love Tolstoy's ideas so much).

@I'm Your Man
:lol: :lol: :lol: I agree. Lets not forget they sterilize people with vaccines, too. I wonder why they mead up swine flue and such stuff :roll:

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