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Vegan/Vegetarians Not healthier than meat eaters- UrToughts?

Posted: Mon May 21, 2012 5:53 pm
by Electric Rider
I came across this article while I am struggling with my decision to go vegan or at least vegetarian. This is a doctor that has over 30 years of experience treating vegan/vegetarians and he says he does not see a decrease in disease due to diet and in many cases, he sees diseases vegan/vegetarians have because of the lack of meat.

I think he brings up an interesting point about vitamin b-12 in the case of rabbits - they as herbivores still get the b-12 they do require bu eating plants infested with bugs (animal rich protein) and eating feces. I don't think any vegans want to eat bugs or feces but if the body does require b-12 then we must get it from somewhere, It's perhaps proof that we are not meant to be strict herbivores in diet?

I'm not posting this as a flame to vegans or vegetarians just trying to sort through all the data so please don't flame me. Please tell me your thoughts on this article - only after you've read it.

Re: Vegan/Vegetarians Not healthier than meat eaters- UrToug

Posted: Mon May 21, 2012 7:14 pm
by jungleinthefrunk
im not equipped to debate the science behind b12...but in the case of eating plants infested with bugs at least the killing is secondary/accidental (killing no less, and this is an issue that is often cited by omnivores...and can get very philosophical) and eating the feces also doesn't hurt any living creatures. actually yesterday i cooked up 7 cups of broccoli from my dad's garden, and after i steamed it noticed a dead boiled caterpillar. i was grossed out and thought about the fact that i had killed it and im sure many others in order to get the food that i eat daily whether i farm it or not, but at least that's incidental/accidental, not purposefully engineered and knowingly inflicting humans equipped with modern technology and minds that can reason i think its about inflicting the least harm and being as healthy as possible - eat plants and take a supplement...we can argue much more confidently that the death of bugs while harvesting is much less avoidable than literally harvesting animals, torturing them, and killing them to eat them..with a significantly smaller carbon footprint i might add.

Re: Vegan/Vegetarians Not healthier than meat eaters- UrToug

Posted: Mon May 21, 2012 7:45 pm
by stcalico
Oh, the site sure looks legit, but Doctor" Ronald Roth on the acu-cell website is not a medical doctor as far as his own website indicates; he is only an acupuncturist -- i.e. no nutritional education listed, but giving nutritional advice. . Good as you or me sloshing through info on the web and giving out our own advice and opinions. ;)

Take a look at the rest of the site on spirituality, suicide and euthanasia. This man has an opinion and an agenda tho his writing style and failure to 'get to the point' makes it hard to decipher exactly what his message is.

Re: Vegan/Vegetarians Not healthier than meat eaters- UrToug

Posted: Mon May 21, 2012 7:50 pm
by robert
Hi there,

Glad to see you're considering a vegan diet/lifestyle and of course, I encourage that for a whole host of reasons.

I just completed a plant-based nutrition certification course through Cornell University and hopefully I'll be able to answer some questions. There are plenty of other resources out there as well.

As far as the B-12 question, Vitamin B-12 doesn't come from animals or plants. It is a bacteria. Because our food and water are so sterile these days, or as the article referenced, "improved sanitation," Vitamin B-12-containing bacteria is hard to find, other than in animal products, which tend to contain lots of bacteria. Therefore, these days, a Vitamin B-12 supplement is a good idea and is generally advised for those not eating bacteria on their food. This has nothing to do with whether we're "meant" to eat a certain way, if we have to supplement, what it means is that our culture has changed, soil has changed, the way we grow, harvest and produce food has changed, and the only Vitamin B-12 bacteria that is readily available happens to be found in certain types of meat.

The fact that Vitamin B-12 is found in certain types of meat doesn't offset all the reasons why meat and other animal products should be eliminated from the diet. There are plenty of studies to reference, plenty of books, and plenty of observations one can make within one's community of the health associated with those who follow a standard western diet, and those who adhere to a plant-based diet. The difference is usually quiet profound. Likewise, profound differences are seen when one rejects an animal based diet after living that way for a long time, perhaps a lifetime, and adopts a plant-based diet. During my work with the film Forks Over Knives we were able to see thousands of first hand testimonials from those who switched to a plant-based diet and had health improve dramatically.

For some additional resources or research you want to do, I suggest some of the following:

Dr. John McDougall

Dr. T. Colin Campbell

Dr. Caldwell Esselstyn

Dr. Doug Lisle

Dr. Pam Popper

Dr. Michael Greger

Dr. Michael Klapper

Dr. Dean Ornish

Dr. Joel Furman

And plenty of others.

A fun website run by a doctor who reads every scientific paper in the English language about health and disease each year is Dr. Greger's website

All the very best!


Re: Vegan/Vegetarians Not healthier than meat eaters- UrToug

Posted: Mon May 21, 2012 7:52 pm
by robert
stcalico, I too saw a bias or agenda in the author's writing style, but then again, I tend to have a bias as well.

I just graduated from Cornell's Plant-Based Nutrition Program so I've been in an academic zone for months. I wasn't too impressed with that article, the "doctor," or the website, but again, that's just my opinion. Perhaps they wouldn't be a fan of my website either :)

Re: Vegan/Vegetarians Not healthier than meat eaters- UrToug

Posted: Mon May 21, 2012 7:59 pm
by stcalico
and ... acu-cell analysis is one of many tests included on the list at

Re: Vegan/Vegetarians Not healthier than meat eaters- UrToug

Posted: Mon May 21, 2012 8:10 pm
by stcalico
Robert.. I think your website is awesome... but I think I fall within your target market. lol.

Re: Vegan/Vegetarians Not healthier than meat eaters- UrToug

Posted: Mon May 21, 2012 8:54 pm
by mrsbadmouth
Wait, is eating feces NOT vegan?!

(Every time someone brings up B-12 I remember to pull the bottle out of my desk and pop one, so thanks!)