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 Post subject: read this article if you want to get upset
PostPosted: Thu Sep 19, 2013 7:07 pm 
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http://www.popsci.com/science/article/2013-08/why-vegan-diets-suck

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 Post subject: Re: read this article if you want to get upset
PostPosted: Thu Sep 19, 2013 7:58 pm 
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Well that is perhaps the most one-sided article I have ever seen come out of PopSci.

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 Post subject: Re: read this article if you want to get upset
PostPosted: Thu Sep 19, 2013 8:09 pm 
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ergh, so much misinformation

b12 deficiency? well that's true, it's not hard to supplement that, and it's easy to pick out a couple deficiencies of a vegan diet, every diet has deficiencies

"Animal protein contains all the essential amino acids in the right ratios. It is important for muscle mass and bone health, to name a few. Vegans don't get any animal protein, which can have negative effects on body composition (2, 3, 4, 5)."
isn't plant based protein good enough?

"3. Proponents of vegan diets use lies and fear mongering to promote their cause."
seriously, this just states that vegans generally use ... fear mongering? to promote the cause?
no sources? references? of course not, i'm happy to tell people that a carniverous diet has higher cholesterol, more chances of heart problems and (in my opinion) is morally wrong, i certainly dont push my diet on people, or even talk about it unless they coax me into it

"4. Vegan diets may work in the short term, for other reasons."
really? no shit, the reason i believe a vegan diet works for some people, is, it's a good medium to essentially detox, a way for people to give up processed and junk foods.

5. There is NO health reason to completely avoid animal foods.

We evolved this way.-- really? we "evolved" to eat meat? seems like more of that religious reasoning "god designed us to eat it", not to mention we also evolved to be able to think rationally, almost this whole section rather than saying vegan diets suck, it explains why some carniverous diets can suck less than other carniverous diets, not to mention this isnt even the main reason alot of people adopt the diet

dha&epa omega 3 fatty acids
well, there are vegan sources for this, with that said, i've read about these being less needed while on a vegan diet (don't quote me lol, i'll have ro read up on it again)

i think the main health benefit of being a vegan is, usually having a vested interest in your diet, and more conscious about what you eat, not to mention most junk, shitty foods contain animal products, sour cream, cheese, hamburgers, chips, flavored milk, most of which are cut out with a vegan diet

anyway haters gonna hate


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 Post subject: Re: read this article if you want to get upset
PostPosted: Thu Sep 19, 2013 8:24 pm 
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That's more disappointing than anger causing. Popsci I thought was a somewhat credible publication. True to what you guy have mentioned they dont seem to back up most of their claims here.


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 Post subject: Re: read this article if you want to get upset
PostPosted: Sun Sep 22, 2013 9:00 am 
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What a load of old tosh. I have only read the first section. I might read the others but might not bother.


'There are some nutrients that can only be gotten from plants (like Vitamin C) and others that can only be gotten from animals.'

First point is wrong. Vitamin C can come from meat. I only found out about that a few years ago. It is strange but true.

'In fact, B12 deficiency is very common in vegans, one study showing that a whopping 92% of vegans are deficient in this critical nutrient (1).'

Only if they don't get it from supplements or fortified food and probably only if they have been vegan for a number of years.

Not all meat will provide B12 as the amount in meat depends on the availability of cobalt in the soil on which the victims of meat eaters graze or where their food is grown. Many are routinely supplemented with cobalt or the soil of the land they graze on is supplemented. If meat eaters ate meat from victims that had little or no access to cobalt their meat would be deficient in B12. Many meat eaters are, indeed, deficient in B12. People over the age of 50 are recommended to get their B12 from fortified foods or supplements as they are more likely to have inadequate amounts of stomach acid.

I saw a couple of studies which conclude that Korean centenarians get about 30% of their B12 from fermented soya foods. And they are not more deficient than western people of similar ages. Also possibly seaweeds. I'm not sure about the seaweeds, though, as the B12 in them is supposed to not be bio-available. But perhaps it is.

Foods are also routinely fortified with vitamins D and B9 (folate). Before this thousands of babied died because their mother's diets didn't provide the foetus with enough D or their milk didn't provide the babies with it. Sunshine is the best source but meat eaters often boast about the D in their diets. Thousands of babies were born with spina bifida because their mother's diets were inadequate whilst they were pregnant and didn't have enough B9. The numbers of babies so affected over the centuries will run into the millions. And the very rare case of vegan babies dying because their ignorant parents fed them soya milk and apple juice is trumpeted as proof of the dangers of the vegan diet. Just a few cases of vegan baby deaths against the thousands of babies of meat eaters who died or were crippled because of their mother's inadequate meat diets.

'Animal protein contains all the essential amino acids in the right ratios'

It doesn't matter about ratios in a particular meal. In fact, some plant foods contain the 'right' ratios.

'Studies show that vegetarians are deficient in creatine,'

Tell that to the muscular and strong vegans.

'Carnosine is protective against various degenerative processes in the body and may protect against aging. It is found only in animal foods'

Carnosine may be protective against free radical damage but so are the anti-oxidants in plant foods. And the haeme iron found in meat along with the carnosine is easily oxidised to cause DNA damage.

'Docosahexaenoic Acid (DHA) is the most active form of Omega-3 fatty acids in the body and primarily found in animal foods.'

Vegan babies would suffer brain and eye damage if their mothers couldn't provide them with enough DHA when they are foetuses. The mothers obviously provide them with DHA which meanst they manage to convert enough of it from ALA for their own needs and the needs of their unborn babies. Vegans may be better at the conversion of ALA to DHA as vegans have adequate levels of DHA despite not getting any in their food.

'Two other nutrients that have been demonized by vegan proponents are saturated fat and cholesterol.'

We don't need dietary sources of either. We make what we need.

'Studies show that saturated fat intake correlates with increased testosterone levels (15).'

Vegans do not have low levels of useable testosterone. In fact,

British Journal of Cancer. 2000 Jul;83(1):95-7.
Hormones and diet: low insulin-like growth factor-I but normal bioavailable androgens in vegan men.
Mean serum insulin-like growth factor-I was 9% lower in 233 vegan men than in 226 meat-eaters and 237 vegetarians (P = 0.002). Vegans had higher testosterone levels than vegetarians and meat-eaters, but this was offset by higher sex hormone binding globulin, and there were no differences between diet groups in free testosterone, androstanediol glucuronide or luteinizing hormone.
PMID: 10883675

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 Post subject: Re: read this article if you want to get upset
PostPosted: Mon Sep 23, 2013 12:47 pm 
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Well it's the typical misuse of science. You can twist facts and statistics to say whatever you want, or you can just straight out lie.

There are people who think that a Summer Camp puppeteer can disprove the work of doctors, universities and a whole countries nutritional institute and there are people who are "meat heads". You know the type, "you have to eat animal protein because" and so on and totally refuse to hear anything else. There are so many people, including the meat and dairy industry who are desperately trying to defend their way of life. Fine, they can have it, and the associated illnesses, heart attacks and so on.

1) Go watch anything by Dr Greger if you want to see good, well rounded information on nutrition and disease.
2) Go look at China and Japan. Their diet was mostly grain based carbs and vegetables and they lived happy and healthy with many of them in their 90's. Until the Western meat and dairy diet came and messed it up. Eat like a caveman? Eat like a chimp? Nah, eat like an Asian.

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 Post subject: Re: read this article if you want to get upset
PostPosted: Mon Sep 23, 2013 6:49 pm 
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Just addressing the first part:

Because B12 is critical for life and isn’t found in any amount in plants (except some types of algae), it is by far the most important nutrient that vegans must be concerned with.
TRUE. Take your B12 supplement kids!

Animal protein contains all the essential amino acids in the right ratios. It is important for muscle mass and bone health, to name a few. Vegans don’t get any animal protein, which can have negative effects on body composition (2, 3, 4, 5).
The operative words being 'can have.'

Creatine helps form an energy reservoir in cells. Studies show that vegetarians are deficient in creatine, which has harmful effects on muscle and brain function (6, 7, 8).
Creatine is produced by the body when needed.

Carnosine is protective against various degenerative processes in the body and may protect against aging. It is found only in animal foods (9, 10, 11).
Carnosine is produced by the body when needed.

Docosahexaenoic Acid (DHA) is the most active form of Omega-3 fatty acids in the body and primarily found in animal foods. The plant form of Omega-3s, ALA, is inefficiently converted to DHA in the body (12, 13, 14).
TRUE. I think a DHA supplement is good to be safe, but I also think most people will be fine with daily flax/chia in their diet.

Two other nutrients that have been demonized by vegan proponents are saturated fat and cholesterol.
Cholesterol is a crucial molecule in the body and is part of every cell membrane. It is also used to make steroid hormones like testosterone. Studies show that saturated fat intake correlates with increased testosterone levels (15).
Cholesterol is produced by the body when needed.
Testosterone is produced by the body when needed.


The article seems to confuse 'healthy' with 'optimal for muscle building at the expense of all else.'

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 Post subject: Re: read this article if you want to get upset
PostPosted: Sun Oct 06, 2013 11:03 pm 
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Fallen_Horse wrote:
Two other nutrients that have been demonized by vegan proponents are saturated fat and cholesterol.
Cholesterol is a crucial molecule in the body and is part of every cell membrane. It is also used to make steroid hormones like testosterone. Studies show that saturated fat intake correlates with increased testosterone levels (15).
Cholesterol is produced by the body when needed.
Testosterone is produced by the body when needed.


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