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Meat eating evil?


CollegeB
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So would anyone here say meat eating is evil? Or should another term be used? Have you dealt with anyone who resented being called evil or told meat eating was wrong and then tried to blame you for environmental degredation (since the rainforest is being cleared to grow it), or claiming you care more about animals than people.

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My nerd self always turns to the dictionary when deciding if a word is appropriate. In this case I would say Evil and Meat Eating go very well together.

 

e·vil

adj. e·vil·er, e·vil·est

 

1. Morally bad or wrong; wicked: an evil tyrant.

2. Causing ruin, injury, or pain; harmful: the evil effects of a poor diet.

3. Characterized by or indicating future misfortune; ominous: evil omens.

4. Bad or blameworthy by report; infamous: an evil reputation.

5. Characterized by anger or spite; malicious: an evil temper.

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Def #1 is probably the most common.

 

Morally bad or wrong... hmm. Why would eating meat be (necessarily) morally bad or wrong?

 

Suppose on snowy, winter night, a doe jumps in front of my car. I hit my brakes, slip on the ice, and accidently kill it. Is the accident immoral? Or was it just an accident? Would I be evil if I cut up the (already) dead dear and ate it? Might some people think that God had provided food for them and their families?

 

I can think of many reasons to cut back on meat in my diet, even eliminating it altogether. But I don't think anyone ever changed their behavior because somebody told them they were evil. Logic and compassion are much better motivators.

 

It is all to easy to hide behind labels and think that others are evil (whether they eat meat or practice a different religion, or dress funny). The real challange is to understand their point of view and be able to explain your own ideas in terms they can understand.

 

Sorry for ranting, but I think we all need to pull together and work towards a common goal, instead of splintering into various squabbling factions. The survival of our race and maybe that of the planet may depend on it.

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Hey Sirdle,

 

Not just the survival of our OWN species, but the others with which we share it as well. Vegans are concerned not only about their own health, and that of the planet, but also care very deeply for animals.

 

 

Certainly, however, we need to do whatever it takes to get through to people. If Joe Blow is not convinced that "Speciesm" is like a cancer in this world, but, instead, is more receptive to ideas of compassion and kindness towards innocent animals, than certainly that is the language that we should use to get through to Joe Blow.

 

Also, just to give you a heads up, as you have already gathered, while pretty much all vegans agree with the core principles (i.e. animal rights), there is division with respect to strategies and tactics. So one vegan's idea of the best way to encourage veganism is not necessarily representative of all vegans. Please keep that in mind always. I mention this because I am not sure if you are vegan or not, new to animal rights or not, but if you read something here with which you dont agree, dont let that turn you off from veganism or animal rights, or even from posting on this board.

 

great to have you here

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Thanks for your thoughtful reply, compassionategirl!

 

No, I am not vegan. Not even vegetarian , but I am thinking about these issues and struggling with decisions in my own life... setting priorities, and working on action plans. Trying to exercise, eat better, work less, and spend more time with my wife and friends.

 

I found this website in passing, looking for bodybuilding tips, and I feel myself being drawn in by the compassion and perceptiveness of many of the posts.

 

My 11-yr old vegetarian niece came for a visit last week. That was quite a treat. (One day she woke up and decided she was vegetarian... Her parents are quite supportive but are struggling to make sure she gets all the vitamins and minerals she needs.) My wife and I spent the week discovering wonderful foods...

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Logic and compassion are much better motivators.

 

 

Fair enough. But, if we really want to call a spade a spade. Generally, people eat meat to indulge their tastebuds and their lust for animal flesh. Most of the world is not in the extreme hypothetical situation which you present.

 

SO WHY BOYCOTT MEAT?

 

1) YOU DONT need meat to survive; it isnt even good for you. The longest running heart study in the world (I think it was called the Framingham study) concluded that vegetarians are less likely to develop scary diseases. Other studies back this up, and it is also backed up by common sense. YOU eat all the crap that the animals were fed, which includes diseased animals that werent fit for human consumption, steriods, antibiotics, hormones, etc etc. and Lord knows what else. Animal flesh is devoid of real nutrients, and only really offers protein and iron. Well, you can get protein and iron in much healthier alternatives to meat that dont carry the same dangers as does meat.

 

And, the human body is not physiologically designed to digest animal flesh. In other words, we arent even natural carnovires at all, which surprises many peopple. This assertion is supported by anthropological evidence, and good ol' common sense. Click here to read fast anthroplogical facts supporting the beleif that we are not designed to eat meat. What you read might surprise you: http://www.bizarro.com/vegan/vegan_carnivores.htm

 

 

2) The selfish and gluttonous human demand for animal flesh causes the suffering of BILLIONS of innocent and young animals a year, which never know even a MODICUM of human kindness, are ripped apart from their young, mutilated, sadistically tortured, raped, trucked off to slaughter in scorching hot and frigildy cold temperatures for HOURS long trasnports with no food or water. They thirst, they trample on each other, they stand amidst their own waste. It is horrible, and it is cruel. These animals are not TOY animals nor are they widgets. Chickens are social, inquisitive animals that develop relationships with other chickens. Cows are among the most gentle and passive animals in the world. Pigs are social and intelligent animals that have been shown to play video games better than three year old children!!!! The only tyhing that should matter, though, is that they all have the capacity to suffer as much as I do, and as much as you do. Above all, they are innocent and so they deserve better, especially from a "superior" race like humans, who have an ethical responsibility to confront the morality of their actions when they are doing these things to weak, voiceless beings who are powerless to defend themselves against this evil.

 

3) Eating meat is killing our environment. Raising animals for food causes more water pollution than ANY OTHER INDUSTRIAL USES COMBINED, is responsible for over 85% of all top soil erosion in the US alone, and causes 130 times the excrement of the ENTIRE human population. That is a lot of piss and crap to burden the environment with!!!!!!!!!!!! WE have no right to rape and pillage the environment, and if we continue to do so, we are signing are own death certificates. Enviromental destruction will lead not only to the extinction of many species of animals, but also to our own. When are people going to understand that when we hurt the environment, we are inevitably hurting ourselves, not to mention thousands of precious ecosystems and animals that once extinct, are lost to future generations forever. We need to beyond our own generation! It is very likely, for example, that my great grandchildren will never get to see a real polar bear because they will have become extinct by that time. What a tragedy that would be.

 

 

4) Veganism can also help to alleviate world hunger. Converting grains to meat is inefficient. With the grain it takes to make one steak - that is one piece of steak - 12 people can eat a plant-based diet!!!!!!

 

I can go on and on about why people should go vegan. Right here, right now.

 

REASONS TO NOT STOP EATING MEAT

 

1. Because it tastes good. Well, I am not going to deny that I use to love meat. But, knowing that my lust for animal flesh was supporting an EVIL industry (and make no mistake that the meat and dairy industries are evil and care only about maximizing profits. NOT about consumer health or basic animal welfare) was too much for my conscience to bear.

 

The bottom line is that the suffering of billions of animals, environmental destrcution, etc etc, are WAY more important than pleasing human palates.

 

So people should go vegan. There is no COMPELLING or REASONABLE excuse not to. The only thing that prevents people from going vegan is selfishness and greed. And I want no part of that. Not when the price for the environment and for animals so high.

 

For a brief one page summary of why I too went vegan, visit:

 

http://www.bizarro.com/vegan/vegan_why.htm.

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hey Sirdle,

 

It looks like we are on at the same time!!

 

Okay, so you arent vegan or even veg. You are still obviously very welcome on these boards. I hope you stick around, join in discussions, and I sincerely hope that you are inspired and motivated - for whatever reasons that move you - to take an important first step towards veganism soon.

 

Vegetarianism is that good first step. Maybe you and your neice can support each other?

 

One thing is for sure - this is by far the healthiest and cleanest way to live, if you become veg in an informed manner. I recommend a book called "Becoming vegan" even if you arent one yet. Your neice, even as a veg, should definietly research and read that book so she makes sure she is doing this right. And, we are here to answer any of your questions or your neices questions about health and fitness. She should join this board too!! It is truly an amazing place- even I learn so much here on a daily basis, and forum topics really get you examining your heart, mind and soul from time to time. Self-examination and self-reflection really keeps one in check

 

 

But guys like Robert, who has been vegan for over 10 years now, is a living breathing example of how healthy and strong you can be on a vegan diet. he puts many meat eaters I know to shame!!!!

 

peace

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One last thing about "priorities" since you mentioned it.

 

For the longest time, what kept me from going vegan was the sentiment that "there are so many important human causes to work for".

 

Well, the fact of the matter is that you can help the planet and animals everytime you sit down to eat by simply skipping animal flesh, dairy and eggs. This takes no extra time and you can continue working, just like you did before, on whatever other causes you deem to be more important.

 

being vegan or vegetarian takes nothing out of your schedule and it doesnt take any time away from other causes that you could be working on.

 

So, many otherwise decent people unfortunately get seduced by this "there are more important things to worry about" line of thinking, but in reality, this is a false notion for reasons noted above.

 

peace

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....but I am thinking about these issues and struggling with decisions in my own life... setting priorities, and working on action plans. Trying to exercise, eat better, work less, and spend more time with my wife and friends.

 

......

My 11-yr old vegetarian niece came for a visit last week. That was quite a treat. (One day she woke up and decided she was vegetarian... Her parents are quite supportive but are struggling to make sure she gets all the vitamins and minerals she needs.) My wife and I spent the week discovering wonderful foods...

 

We've all been where your at right now.

 

I wish my relatives were as supportive as your neices parents are! I came from a very meat and potatoes kind of family, and I think Robert came from a family that was involved in animal agriculture!!! (correct me if i am wrong robert!!!). But, honestly, the bottom line is that somewhere deep down inside, I think almost all people know that it is wrong in this day and age to kill animals for food. Some people fight that feeling there whole lives and try to barry it ir rationalize meat eating in to themselves, while others simply cannot ignore the burden that begins to weigh heavily on their consciences are they become more aware and more educated on the issues.

 

BUt I must admit that your niece being so young and already so compassionate is very impressive. I congratulate her for being so caring and attune to the sensitivity of the planet and other creatures at such a young age, and I also congratulate her parents for recognizing that a compassionate, sensitive daughter with an evolved sense of conscioussness to something to be proud of and encourage. And yes, they should make sure she is getting all her nutrients. There are several resouces and books that talk about raising veggie kids, or going vegetarian, and you can certainly invite your neice's parents to post any questions or concerns right here in this forum. We would be pleased to do our best to answer them!!

 

For a FREE vegetarian starter kit, please visit www.goveg.com, fill in the free veggie starter quit request, and check it out! You have nothing to lose. Actually, that site is packed with resources, and info about making the transition correctly, veggie nutrition, and fun facts!!! So navigate it and enjoy!!

 

peace

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Hey Compassionategirl,

 

Isn't it kinda late there?

 

The example that I gave was totally hypothetical. I was trying to think of a case in which eating meat would not necessarily be "evil."

 

I totally agree with paragraphs numbered 1, 3, and 4. I have known about these arguments for years, but they never convinced me to change my behavior... I am not sure why. I guess I believed that #1 would affect me only, and #3 and #4 could be theoretically offset with a greater reliance on technology. So there was no sense of urgency.

 

#2 however, is different. Clearly there is a moral issue here, that I could ignore as long as I did not think about it. The more I think about it, however, the more I realize the need to make a decision. (Torture and rape? Are you exaggerating for effect, or is this true?) My neighbor has a dozen free range chickens (no roosters) on her 5-acre property. They seem pretty happy and they are certainly well cared for and protected from predators. I guess I don't have a problem with occasionally eating their unfertilized eggs... but I certainly agree that the corporate chicken/cattle/pork factories are inhumane and, in that sense, evil.[/i]

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I'll point my niece's parents to this site and recommend the sources you list.

 

Actually, I think my niece's decision to be vegetarian started as a whim. But as more and more people asked her why? she thought about it more and more. So now she is pretty well informed and committed!

 

I think you are wrong when you say changing to a vegan lifestyle doesn't take any more time than not being vegan. There can be, and in my case there is, a huge learning curve. I grew up in a family where "cooking" meant opening a can of something and heating it up on the stove. Getting to where I could buy and store fruits and vegetables in my house was a big step. Of course now it doesn't take any more time. (Can you believe that I didn't know that spaghetti was made from a grain? Or that pickles weren't grown in the wild? Or that potatoes didn't come in a box? Or that spinach was a green leafy vegetable?)

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I LUV THAT PICTURE you are so cute!!!!!! Honestly, you were one good lookin' kid. Okay, now on to your very reasonable questions.

 

When I said tortured and raped, that is exactly what I meant. here are some specifics, but this only begins to scratch the surface:

 

Animals are routinely drowned in scalding water while still fully conscious. This is because more often than not chickens are not propertly stunned, and the killing line certainly doesnt stop for humane consideration. The meat industry cares about profit and quota. Not about the excruciating pain that an animal being drowned in scalding water feels. Just the other day I was boiling some water and accidentally some of it splashed on me. The pain was indescribable. Imagine what it must feel like to be DROWNED in boiling water. And the terrified animals doesnt understand what is going on and is powerless to defend herself.

 

That the killing line is not stopped for humane consideration has been confirmed to me by people that I know who actually worked in a slaugherthouse, and I think one of Brendan's friends (Brendan posts here can also vouch for this as he too use to work inside of a slaugherhouse).

 

 

After conception, a sow (female pig) is imprisoned in a gestation stall. She remains in this stall for about 16 weeks, giving the producer total control over her. To counter her stress, the sheds are kept dark except at feeding time. While the sow is inactive, she is "limit fed" once every two or three days, to hold down her weight and save money.

 

About a week before her piglets are due, the pregnant sow is moved to a farrowing stall. here she is restricted for another 2-3 weeks after her piglets are born. She cannot walk or turn around. The only thing she can do is lie down or stand up to keep her in position for eating , drinking, and keeping her teats exposed to her baby pigs. Breeding sows are incarcerated into farrowing crates in this way, pinned down between metal bars, unable to walk or mother her piglets. The "factory farms" are designed for maximum exploitation of the animals, who never see daylight until their trip to the slaughterhouse.

 

the newborn pigs receive injections of iron, antibiotics, their tails get cut off, and their ears notched for identification purposes. They get their teeth PULLED OUT WITH PLIARS, young males are usually castrated before weaning all with never any pain killers. . 2-3 weeks after birth, the piglets are taken to be fattened for market. The mother is immediately impregnated and sent back to the gestation stall to begin this hellish "cycle" (aka torture) all over again.

 

VEAL

 

Crated veal factories are among the harshest confinement systems. Veal producers take newborn calves AWAY from their mothers within hours of being born and chain them in crates averaging 22" wide by 58" long. Over a million calves spend their entire lives in solitary confinement unable to scratch, stretch their legs, or turn around until they are hauled off to slaughter. Suffering from chronic diarhea, standing in their own waste, deprived of solid food or water, the calves are fed only a diet of artiifical liquid feed, which includes growth stimulators, antibiotics, and mold inhibitors. YUP you read that right MOLD INHIBITORS. Their unnatural food and confinement is aimed at producing the anemic, pale-colored meat sold as high-priced "prime" or "milk-fed" veal.

One veal factory inspector writes: " We visited a milk-fed veal factory in Connecticut. Though it was broad daylight outside, the calves' rooms were pitch dark; our guide explained that darkness helped keeped the calves quieter. The lights were turned on at feeding time when the producer made his rounds. In two rooms, more than a hundred calves were crated in rows of wooden stalls. Their eyes followed our movements. Many tried to stretch toward us from their stalls in order to suckle a finger, a hand, or part of our clothing. The farmer explained, "They want their mothers, I guess."

 

Animals used for food are specifically exempted from anti-cruelty laws in many states. And there is no federal law to ensure that farm animals have proper care, suitable living conditions or protection from abuse and cruelty.

 

CATTLE

 

After several months on the range, cattle are transported to feedlots crowded with tens of thousands of animals where they are fattened up as quickly as possible to a market weight of 1000 pounds. In combination with commercial growth promotants, the cattle are fed corn and soy meal. To reduce costs, some feed lots add cardboard, newspaper, sawdust, chicken and pig manure, industrial sewege, oils, and even cement dust to animals feed, not to mention ground up animal. In fact, mad cow disease arose because cows were being fed ground up carcusses of sick cows, even though all farmers know that cows are vegetarian animals! They know, but they dont care enough about consumer or animal health to do act on this knowledge.

 

Cattle are routinely castrated, dehorned and hot-iron branded without painkillers or anaesthetics. Their screams of pain and torment are real and audible to their tormentors. Unfortunately, nobody listens, nobody cares.

 

Dairy cows perhaps have it worse. After a few years of constant impregnation and calf and milk production, the worn out cow is trucked off to the slaugherhouse. Because her exhausted body is not suitable for steaks, chops, and other cuts, she ends up a hamburger in a fast food chain. "Downers", the most vulnerable of the vulnerable, often exhausted dairy cows or breeding sows, too sick or weak to walk on their own, are often dragged by chains to the killing line or just discarded to a slow and miserable death.

 

After years of physical and pychological abuse in the above ways, cows are shipped off to slaughter with no food or water in extreme weather temperatures. AT the slaugherhouse, they are often hung upside down from a hook and delimbed (i.e. have their limbs hacked off) while fully conscious.

 

CHICKENS

 

In poultry, cannabilism resulting from overcrowding is controlled by routine debeaking. This began around 1940, when a San Diego poultry farmer found that if he burned away the birds' upper beaks with a blowtorch, they were unable to pick and pull at each others feathers. His neighbour caught on to the idea, but used a modified soldering iron instead. A couple of years later, a local company began to manufacture the "debeaker", a machine that sliced off the chicks' beaks with a hot iron blade. This is EXCRUCIATINGLY painful for a chick, as her beak is one of the most sensitive parts of her body. Imagine somebody putting a blowtorch to your lips!! The agony that you would feel is no different than what these animals experience - billions of them every year.

 

And, to make matters even more appalling, the beaks of birds are sloppily cut. An excessively hot blade causes blisters in the mouth. A cold/dull blade may cause the development of a fleshy, bulb like growth at the end of the mandible. Such growths are very sensitive. Some debeaked birds do not grow to full size because beak tenderness makes it hard for them to eat and drink, and so they starve.

 

Eggs are taken from the hens and placed in an oven to hatch. After hatching, half of the chicks, the males, who dont lay eggs, are literally thrown away. At one such hatchery, "chick pullers" weeded males from each tray and dropped them into heavy duty plactis bags. The guide explained: "We put them in a bag and let them suffocate. A mink farmer picks them up and feds them to his mink."

 

Speaking of minks and all animals murdered for their fur. One typical method for killing fur bearing animals is genital electrocution. Yup, you read that right. They have "devices" shoved up their genitals only to be fried to death on the inside, so their fur on the outside remains in tact so designers like Christain D'ior and people like Jennifer Lopez and Biance can walk around feeling "glamorous". Not to mention the animals caught in leg-hold traps, in pain for days, exposed to the elements, who often chew off their own paws to escape the terror!!! of course, being handicapped and injured in this way makes them easy prey for other animals in the wild, so they suffer and die, or are ripped apart by anotehr predator. What a horrible way to do. Or, baby seals who are clubbed to death in front of their frantic mothers, an atrocity which after being outlawed for many years, has been reintroduced by the pathetic government and greedy fishermen in my country.

 

Back to the chickens though.

 

Chickens, can live as long as 15 years. In the modern egg factory, hens lived less than two years, warehoused in battery cages stacked from floor to ceiling. All their natural instincts are thwarted by being crammed into tiny cages with other birds. Please dont think that many chickens and hens are treated the same humane way that your friend treats hers. This line of thinking is grossly inaccurate.

 

Finally at the slaugherhouse, numerous undercover exposes of chicken suppliers like Tysons and Pilgrims pride, even kosher places, have been caught on tape inflicting the most vile and sadistic evil acts on defenseless, innocent and gentle animals. Workers were caught spitting tobacco in chicken's eyes, smashing their heads with pipes, shoving the heads of weak and sickly birds up the but of another so as to form a "chicken chain" and then to yank them apart again, just for fun. Accounts from former slaugherhouse gone vegetarian workers confim that crulety like this is the norm rather than the exception in the industry.

 

As Paul McCartney and his wife said, if slaughterhouses had glass walls, we would all be vegetarian.

 

Animals in laboratories are force fed bleach, have corrosive substances dripped into their eyes after being strapped down with their eyeballs pinned open so that cannot move or blink. Many break their necks and backs trying to escape the pain. All this so L'oreal can come up with a new shade of haircolour to maintain "market share", or Proctor and Gamble can come up with a new scented Mr. Clean product. I cringe when I see commercials for these products on tv because i am all too aware of what it has meant for animals.

 

Fish suffer excruciating decompression followed by suffocation when hauled from the deep seas. They just dont have vocal chords to voice their pain. I know I wouldnt enjoy being hooked in the mouth and being impaled. Its gotta hurt. And, fish are by far the most defenseless of animasl, with no arms, no vocal chords, nothing.They are utterly at the mercy of humans who refuse to see them for the smart and social animals that they are and want to think of them as only food.

 

Please consider going vegan, or at least vegetarian as a first important step. It is the BEST way to ensure that you are not supporting any of the heartbreaking atrocities above.

 

But, dont take my word for it, check it out for yourself:

 

www.farmsanctuary.org

www.cok.net

www.whyvegan.org

www.DawnWatch.com

 

 

Meet your Meat (petatv.org)

The Witness (tribeofheart.org)

 

Animals hve as much capacity to suffer as do you and I. They can feel loneliness, sadness, happiness and fear (as pet animals have shown us). And, many animals have a bond to their offspring too. Just try to get near a bear cub when his mommy is around and you will quickly agree Calves long for the comfort and warmth and security of their moms. The moms wonder what happened to their calves.

 

I will end with this piece from Ronald Sklar:

 

 

There are moral issues here that we refuse to recognize. When one group with the power to advance its own self-interests exploits a group completely lacking in power, the powerful group has to face the question of the morality of its conduct. It was that way with slavery; it is that way with our use of animals. As Mr. Scully writes: "When a quarter-million birds are stuffed into a single shed, unable even to flap their wings, when more than a million pigs inhabit a single farm, never once stepping into the light of day, when every year tens of millions of creatures go to their death without knowing the least measure of human kindness, it is time to question old assumptions, to ask what we are doing and what spirit drives us on."

 

As a society, we haven't asked those questions. If we were at least to admit that there is a moral issue, and that we need to open a dialogue among ourselves about the extent to which we can continue this exploitation, it would be a start toward a new plane of human existence.

 

 

 

Call it a "right" as do American law professors Tom Regan and Steven Wise; call it a "basic moral principle" as does Princeton philosopher Peter Singer in his seminal book, Animal Liberation, or call it "common human decency and kindness," as does Matthew Scully.

 

Whatever we call it, it's now time to give to the non-human animals that share this world with us the humane consideration they deserve.

 

And let's not wait until we have to watch mass cow slaughterings on television.

 

So you see, this is why many vegans are angry and frustrated with the world who refuses to act to put an end to this mass murder, torture and rape.

 

And i hope you can also understand, even if you dont quite agree, why many vegans will not hesitate to describe the support of any of the above cruelties as evil.

 

But, I do beleive that most humans on this earth arent evil. Just misguided and uninformed. That is why we need to open up people's eyes to the dirty little secrets that animal exploiters wish to hide from public scrutiny. We need to inform people, and once they see the suffering, once they hear the cries of terror and pain, then I know they will be guided to veganism by their own consciences, and they will never look back!!

 

 

peace

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I think you are wrong when you say changing to a vegan lifestyle doesn't take any more time than not being vegan. There can be, and in my case there is, a huge learning curve. I grew up in a family where "cooking" meant opening a can of something and heating it up on the stove. Getting to where I could buy and store fruits and vegetables in my house was a big step. Of course now it doesn't take any more time. (Can you believe that I didn't know that spaghetti was made from a grain? Or that pickles weren't grown in the wild? Or that potatoes didn't come in a box? Or that spinach was a green leafy vegetable?)

 

Fair enough! But once you learn the basics, its a piece of cake (vegan cake, that is ).

 

peace

 

P.S. I will be visiting a few friends in Cali soon (including Kollision, who is also from Cali - maybe you guys live near each other?)

 

anyway, maybe we could all get together one night for some vegan cuisine!

 

natalie

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Thanks for the details, Natalie... very persuasive!

 

A couple of questions and comments:

 

I LUV THAT PICTURE you are so cute!!!!!!

Thanks, I wish I were still that cute. I will be again after 12 months on my new program, though!

 

To reduce costs, some feed lots add cardboard, newspaper, sawdust, chicken and pig manure, industrial sewege, oils, and even cement dust to animals feed

How can that reduce costs? If there are no nutrients in the feed that can be converted to fat, how can this be beneficial at all? Is this due to poor quality control? Are there nutrients, of a sort, in these substances that the cattle can convert to fat? Or am I missing something?

 

they are often hung upside down from a hook and delimbed (i.e. have their limbs hacked off) while fully conscious.

Is this because the were not killed on the killing line, or do you think this represents sadism on the part of the workers?

 

Animals in laboratories are force fed bleach, have corrosive substances dripped into their eyes after being strapped down with their eyeballs pinned open so that cannot move or blink. Many break their necks and backs trying to escape the pain. All this so L'oreal can come up with a new shade of haircolour to maintain "market share", or Proctor and Gamble can come up with a new scented Mr. Clean product.

I don't understand this at all... oh, wait. You moved from food prep to product testing, didn't you? These are methods that Proctor and Gamble, et al, use to test their products before releasing them to the public?

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Thanks for the details, Natalie... very persuasive!

 

A couple of questions and comments:

 

I LUV THAT PICTURE you are so cute!!!!!!

Thanks, I wish I were still that cute. I will be again after 12 months on my new program, though!

 

Don't doubt that for a second!

 

 

To reduce costs, some feed lots add cardboard, newspaper, sawdust, chicken and pig manure, industrial sewege, oils, and even cement dust to animals feed

How can that reduce costs? If there are no nutrients in the feed that can be converted to fat, how can this be beneficial at all? Is this due to poor quality control? Are there nutrients, of a sort, in these substances that the cattle can convert to fat? Or am I missing something?

 

Not exactly sure why or how - I only know that this what happens. See the following sources: Food Revolution by John Robbins, Diet for a New America by John Robbins, Mad Cowboy by Howard Lyman (a former cattle rancher gone vegan), Animal Factories by Jim Mason and Peter Singer, and Factories of Despair, a publication by Animal Righst International (from which most of the info above was obtained).

 

they are often hung upside down from a hook and delimbed (i.e. have their limbs hacked off) while fully conscious.

 

Is this because the were not killed on the killing line, or do you think this represents sadism on the part of the workers?

 

Both. But one main reason is because one common method of killing cattle is hanging them upside down, from a hook, slitting their throats, and letting them bleed out to death, one slow, painful, terrifying drop of blood at a time. The problem is that many a times, although in some some states, the workers are required by weak animal welfare laws to wait until the animals are dead before they can start hacking away at the animals' limbs with a saw or whatever, they are encouraged (by the greedy meat sellers or by sadism on their parts, or a combo of both) to NOT wait and to "process animals and convert them into chops quickly". So cows end up getting delimbed while fully conscious, terrified and alread bleeding to death profusely. It is truly a sickening site. People need to understand that this is happening daily and it is not a myth. The goal is to "process" the max number of animals a day, because it boils down to money. This is, as common sense itself dictates, a recipe for animal abuse and suffering.

 

Animals in laboratories are force fed bleach, have corrosive substances dripped into their eyes after being strapped down with their eyeballs pinned open so that cannot move or blink. Many break their necks and backs trying to escape the pain. All this so L'oreal can come up with a new shade of haircolour to maintain "market share", or Proctor and Gamble can come up with a new scented Mr. Clean product.

I don't understand this at all... oh, wait. You moved from food prep to product testing, didn't you? These are methods that Proctor and Gamble, et al, use to test their products before releasing them to the public?

 

yes sirdle, i switched over from the food industry to the vivisection industry. Sorry - i should have maybe stayed focussed on the food issue. But for frivolous things like cosmetics, household cleaning products, etc. animals suffer in laboratories, have invasive and frankenstein - ish scary "tests" performed on them, all to test chemicals, pesticides, costmetics, cleaning agents, etc. Animals in laboratories - unseen they suffer, unheard they cry, in agony they loinger, and in loneliness they die. They are sentenced to a whole life behind bars and in dreary scary laboratories. Many companies like Estee Lauder have made a commitment in writing to test for product safety without the use of animals. So clearly, this is both possible and feasible. Companies that are NOTORIOUS for animal torture, maiming, blinding and killing include Arm & Hammer (as in the baking soda), proctor and gamble (makers of Tide, Mr Clean, Colgate or crest - cannot remember which but both products are bad anyway), Unilever (makers of Oil of Olay, Vaseline, etc etc).

 

For a complete list, visit caringconsumer.com

 

Visit stopanimaltests.com and watch some of the caught on tape exposes of the vivisection industry and what the issues involved with this controversial issue of animal testing are. It is truly heartbreaking.

 

And, the fact of the matter is that many of these tests are cruel, antiquated, redundant and unnecessary. There are plenty of vegan companies out there that show us that not only do we not need to test products on animals, we dont need to use any animal derived/slaughterhouse byproduct ingredient in our products.

 

Visit Pangea, or Vegan Essentials. They will send you a free catalogue - and i am one of those people that LOVE browsing through catalogues.

 

Finally, another website and source of info that might be of interest is www.pcrm.org. This is the website for the Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine.

 

Finally for some lighter, comcial animal rights cartoons that will make you laugh and cry at the same time, visit Bizarro.com and click on animal stuff.

 

I know that this is a lot to take in especially since you are new to this. Just take it one step, one compassionate gesture at a time, and before you know it, you will be a very informed and aware consumer. And, while the struggle for animal justice may seem so big and hopeless, dont ever think that one person cannot make a difference. The fact of the matter is that social change happens one kind, caring person at a time!

 

You CAN make a difference in your daily lifestyle choices by removing support for animal exploitation, one step at a time (or in one leap at a time )

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Hi Sirdle and welcome to the board. I'm not really going to attempt to answer your questions as Nat has already written several volumes that I haven't had time to read through.

 

Just a couple of comments. I would not call you evil or write you off as one of those evil people upon meeting you. However, among vegans as most of us are on this board, the dictionary definition just fit surprisingly in to the worldview of most vegans. I'm sure there are those who would differ as vegans come in as many varieties as any other group.

 

I think it is awesome that you are exploring your own morality and justifications for eating meat. That's all I really ask of people. Veganism would be rampant if everyone did that. I get so disguisted by people who say "if i thought about i couldn't do it". That is the most frustrating thing I ever hear. Why don't people realize that statements like that make them sound like complete idiots!!! It's a denial of their own inner self, very unfortunate and I'm sure carries over in to other areas of their lives.

 

I would suggest reading From Farm to Fork http://www.ca4a.org/info/farmtofork.html You may be vegan by the weekend.

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I am going to go out on a limb here, risking potential friends and credability, but I guess I am new here, so I don't really have any friends here yet to begin with but...

 

I have to say, that from my perspective eating animal products is not in and of itself evil. Wether you believe in creation or evloution, there is nothing that says eating meat is evil. Take a look around you at the animal kingdom... it is very harsh, cruel, and full of suffering. Have you ever seen a cat play with a mouse, killing it slowly before it eats it? How about a boa constrictor slowly suffocating it's prey? There are many more examples that I can't think of at the moment. If you believe that we descended from primates, then you will also find that primates eat meat from time to time. (I come from a biblical perspective, but meat isn't explicity forbidden in the in the new testament either). Nature was designed to exist in a careful balance, with give and take, and some of that give and take means the giving/taking of life for survival.

 

What I do believe is evil, or sinful, if I may, is greed. And that is where all of these problems with animals are stemming from. You never see an animal being greedy, they take what they need and that is all, no more and no less. That is where we fall down. We live lives of tremendous excess, and that is where the suffering of others is originating from. You cause as much harm to animals and the environment by putting a gallon of gas in your car as you do eating a burger. You ride a bike you say? Well, I wonder how much harm was caused by the manufacture of your bike. In fact, here we are discussing this on our computers... do you realize how much suffering, pollution and waste is caused by building a computer? Nobody is complaining here about computers being evil... I could go on and on, but the point I am trying to make is that no matter what we do, we will cause harm to other people, animals, and the environment in some way.

 

What we need to do is learn how to live our lives just using what we need, and nothing more. Yes, we don't need meat to survive. But if you are stranded somewhere and a chicken happens to walk by, then I wouldn't think you would be wrong to kill it so you could feed your starving child. If, however, you are living "high on the hog" so to speak, and others are suffering because you demand sausage rather than otmeal for breakfast, then I think there is a problem there. In fact, there are lots of problems like that, and not just from eating animal products. These problems pretty much all stem from greed and excess.

 

I consider myself a vegan (mostly, although I don't like all of the labels that can be attached to that), maybe you could call me a plant eater instead, because I might have a little turkey at thanksgiving. I think it is more important to focus on trying to live a life that is selfless, compassionate, and forgiving, rather than focus solely on the act of not eating animal products. What you will find is that you will most likely eat a lot less animal products (if any), have greater care for the environment, and generally make more informed choices because you will realize just how living your life day to day can have such a deep impact on so much of our world.

 

Ok! Rant over!

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Hey Nat, thanks for the info... I especially liked the "Salmonella Sandwich" cartoon at Bizarro: http://www.bizarro.com/vegan/vegan_cartoon13.htm

 

Hey Michael, thanks for your comments.

I get so disguisted by people who say "if i thought about i couldn't do it".

So true! BTW, the Farm to Fork site http://www.ca4a.org/info/farmtofork.html was pretty intense. Great photos and videos though. Are there any film producers or script writers out there? Perhaps a reality TV show on food production would help the vegan cause?

 

dtougas, I agree with your cat-and-mouse view of survival. Remember the old bumper stickers that said "Animals are kind to dumb people"? I saw one once that said "Animals Eat dumb people". I have a great respect for (some) hunters, who learn the behavior of the animal the wish to kill, stalk it for hours, kill it, eat it, say a prayer for the animal they killed, and try to use as much of the animal as they can. A hunter friend of mine once said, "Until you have stalked an animal through the woods, tracking its sign, and killed it and eaten it, you are not a Part of nature, you are just an observer." This is a far cry, however, from the conditions shown on the Farm to Fork site listed above.

 

But I think where Nat and Michael are coming from is that our human intelligence allows us to move beyond the cat-and-mouse view of survival. We can still get all the nutrients we need and reduce the impact on the environment by changing our diet. But by keeping our diets as they are we encourage and, in fact, help create the demand that drives the killing-for-profit food industry. Encouraging these practices to continue, and providing monetary support for the same, is what they consider "evil".

 

(Nat and Michael: I hate to put words in your mouths, so correct me if I misunderstood your posts.)

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But I think where Nat and Michael are coming from is that our human intelligence allows us to move beyond the cat-and-mouse view of survival. We can still get all the nutrients we need and reduce the impact on the environment by changing our diet. But by keeping our diets as they are we encourage and, in fact, help create the demand that drives the killing-for-profit food industry. Encouraging these practices to continue, and providing monetary support for the same, is what they consider "evil".

 

I completely agree, I hope my post did not come across otherwise. All I was trying to say is that I don't think that actual act of eating an animal product is evil. Just like eating chocolate, drinking coffee, or putting gas in the car isn't evil. They aren't things we need to live a healthful life. Yet when we get "addicted" to these things, they cause us as a society to do evil things when we get greedy and want lots of it for really cheap.

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But I think where Nat and Michael are coming from is that our human intelligence allows us to move beyond the cat-and-mouse view of survival. We can still get all the nutrients we need and reduce the impact on the environment by changing our diet. But by keeping our diets as they are we encourage and, in fact, help create the demand that drives the killing-for-profit food industry. Encouraging these practices to continue, and providing monetary support for the same, is what they consider "evil".

 

(Nat and Michael: I hate to put words in your mouths, so correct me if I misunderstood your posts.)

 

Hey Sirdle, well said!!! Wow, for somebody that isnt vegan yet, you sure are a great animal advocate In fact, I couldnt have said it more succinctly myself. Cannot speak for Michael, but what you have I pretty much meant, yes - with only one further qualification - ethical vegans beleive that animals have rights - that they are not ours to eat anymore than the next door neighbour. So animal welfare - that animals should be eaten so long as they are killed humanely - is not a :vegan" belief. (But that wefarist posture is certainly better than somebody who doesnt care at all about how animals are tortured).

 

Tdouglas, the point is that we are not generally in a life or death survival situationas you describe, and thus, there is no ethical justification for eating meat. We do it to indulge our appetities, our tastes. It is gluttonous self-indulgence and we should expect and try for better than that because animals are completely at human mercy. And, humans, being the "superior" species, should know and do better. WE have the ability to reason, and to know the difference between right and wrong. And knowledge isnt just power, but obligation. Just because a cat tortures a mouse, that is hardly a justification for us eating Turkey at Thanksgiving or any other time for that matter.

 

"An animal’s inability to understand and adhere to our rules is as irrelevant as a child’s or a person with a developmental disability’s inability to do so. Animals are not always able to choose to change their behaviors, but adult human beings have the intelligence and ability to choose between behaviors that hurt others and behaviors that do not hurt others. When given the choice, it makes sense to choose compassion." As the species with the capacity for moral, rational thought and behaviour, we have the obligation to do so. With 'superiority' or greatness, afterall, comes responsibility - one that humans who like the taste of animals like to ignore.

 

I beleive that empathy and compassion are what can heal this world. Put yourself in the other being shoes, and do as you would wish them to do.

 

As one person said, "All beings tremble before violence. All fear death. All value their own lives. See yourself in other living things. Then who can you hurt? What harm can you cause?"

 

Veganism isnt about perfection or personal purity. As has been stated at nauseaum on other threads, it is about reducing suffering.

 

Please read the following threads on this site as they may be of interest:

 

"Why are you vegan", "What does veganism mean to you" "Vegan Elitism" , "Think God would be vegan",

 

You will see that people have different perspectives, some of which may anger you, some of which you may agree with, some of which you came to eventually believe and understand.

 

But, ethical vegans beleive that animals have the right to live their lives free of human molestation, and they reject speciesm. I have written elsewhere that genocide of my people has caused me to be in the position to see, clearly than most others, that "They are inferior because they are different" attitude is a cancer in this world that needs to be eliminated if we ever truly will know peace. This applies to animals too. It requires a paradigm shift, but if humans have already demonstrated the capacity for such a shift in consciousness and in the realtionship between people and animals, then there is hope.

 

Okay now maybe I will let another ethical vegan step in so I dont monopolize this thread. Cant help it - i am passionate about compassion for animals.

 

And lastly, while you may "treat" yourself to Turkey on Thanksgiving, please remain mindful that Thanksguiving is no treat for the animals that are violently murdered for their tasty flesh.

 

may ALL innocent beings be happy and free of suffering,

nat

 

EDITTED TO ADD: OOPS I WENT TO SUBMIT THIS AND SAW THAT YOUR CLARIFIED YOUR POSITION.

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Hey Nat, thanks for the info... I especially liked the "Salmonella Sandwich" cartoon at Bizarro: http://www.bizarro.com/vegan/vegan_cartoon13.htm

 

 

Ya that was a good one too. I think my favourite is the one where they put McDonalds in the trap and say "SSHH. The test subjec is coming."

 

As well as the one with the hamburger helper truck that smashed into the slaughterhouse and you see all the cows running out, running for their lives. Get it - "hamburger helper".

 

peace

Bizarro is a really talented cartoonist.

In case anybody else reading this is curious, you can view his animal rights cartoons at www.bizarro.com - just click on animal stuff.

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Are there any film producers or script writers out there? Perhaps a reality TV show on food production would help the vegan cause?

 

 

I doubt that any network would touch it, and at any rate, even if they considered it, the vested corporate interests in maintaining the status quo of farm animals would fight this tooth and nail, and win.

 

nat

 

"Choose the side of the weak and the oppressed, not the powerful oppressors. Neutrality helps the oppressors. Take action now. Go vegan for life."

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