Vegan Bodybuilding & Fitness

[color=blue]yes sirdle, i switched over from the food industry to the vivisection industry. Sorry - i should have maybe stayed focussed on the food issue. But for frivolous things like cosmetics, household cleaning products, etc. animals suffer in laboratories, have invasive and frankenstein - ish scary "tests" performed on them, all to test chemicals, pesticides, costmetics, cleaning agents, etc. Animals in laboratories - unseen they suffer, unheard they cry, in agony they loinger, and in loneliness they die. They are sentenced to a whole life behind bars and in dreary scary laboratories. Many companies like Estee Lauder have made a commitment in writing to test for product safety without the use of animals. So clearly, this is both possible and feasible. Companies that are NOTORIOUS for animal torture, maiming, blinding and killing include Arm & Hammer (as in the baking soda), proctor and gamble (makers of Tide, Mr Clean, Colgate or crest - cannot remember which but both products are bad anyway), Unilever (makers of Oil of Olay, Vaseline, etc etc).

For a complete list, visit caringconsumer.com

Visit stopanimaltests.com and watch some of the caught on tape exposes of the vivisection industry and what the issues involved with this controversial issue of animal testing are. It is truly heartbreaking.

And, the fact of the matter is that many of these tests are cruel, antiquated, redundant and unnecessary. There are plenty of vegan companies out there that show us that not only do we not need to test products on animals, we dont need to use any animal derived/slaughterhouse byproduct ingredient in our products.

Visit Pangea, or Vegan Essentials. They will send you a free catalogue - and i am one of those people that LOVE browsing through catalogues.

Finally, another website and source of info that might be of interest is www.pcrm.org. This is the website for the Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine.

Finally for some lighter, comcial animal rights cartoons that will make you laugh and cry at the same time, visit Bizarro.com and click on animal stuff.

I know that this is a lot to take in especially since you are new to this. Just take it one step, one compassionate gesture at a time, and before you know it, you will be a very informed and aware consumer. And, while the struggle for animal justice may seem so big and hopeless, dont ever think that one person cannot make a difference. The fact of the matter is that social change happens one kind, caring person at a time!

You CAN make a difference in your daily lifestyle choices by removing support for animal exploitation, one step at a time (or in one leap at a time )[/color]

Hi Sirdle and welcome to the board. I'm not really going to attempt to answer your questions as Nat has already written several volumes that I haven't had time to read through.

Just a couple of comments. I would not call you evil or write you off as one of those evil people upon meeting you. However, among vegans as most of us are on this board, the dictionary definition just fit surprisingly in to the worldview of most vegans. I'm sure there are those who would differ as vegans come in as many varieties as any other group.

I think it is awesome that you are exploring your own morality and justifications for eating meat. That's all I really ask of people. Veganism would be rampant if everyone did that. I get so disguisted by people who say "if i thought about i couldn't do it". That is the most frustrating thing I ever hear. Why don't people realize that statements like that make them sound like complete idiots!!! It's a denial of their own inner self, very unfortunate and I'm sure carries over in to other areas of their lives.

I would suggest reading From Farm to Fork http://www.ca4a.org/info/farmtofork.html You may be vegan by the weekend.

I am going to go out on a limb here, risking potential friends and credability, but I guess I am new here, so I don't really have any friends here yet to begin with but...

I have to say, that from my perspective eating animal products is not in and of itself evil. Wether you believe in creation or evloution, there is nothing that says eating meat is evil. Take a look around you at the animal kingdom... it is very harsh, cruel, and full of suffering. Have you ever seen a cat play with a mouse, killing it slowly before it eats it? How about a boa constrictor slowly suffocating it's prey? There are many more examples that I can't think of at the moment. If you believe that we descended from primates, then you will also find that primates eat meat from time to time. (I come from a biblical perspective, but meat isn't explicity forbidden in the in the new testament either). Nature was designed to exist in a careful balance, with give and take, and some of that give and take means the giving/taking of life for survival.

What I do believe is evil, or sinful, if I may, is greed. And that is where all of these problems with animals are stemming from. You never see an animal being greedy, they take what they need and that is all, no more and no less. That is where we fall down. We live lives of tremendous excess, and that is where the suffering of others is originating from. You cause as much harm to animals and the environment by putting a gallon of gas in your car as you do eating a burger. You ride a bike you say? Well, I wonder how much harm was caused by the manufacture of your bike. In fact, here we are discussing this on our computers... do you realize how much suffering, pollution and waste is caused by building a computer? Nobody is complaining here about computers being evil... I could go on and on, but the point I am trying to make is that no matter what we do, we will cause harm to other people, animals, and the environment in some way.

What we need to do is learn how to live our lives just using what we need, and nothing more. Yes, we don't need meat to survive. But if you are stranded somewhere and a chicken happens to walk by, then I wouldn't think you would be wrong to kill it so you could feed your starving child. If, however, you are living "high on the hog" so to speak, and others are suffering because you demand sausage rather than otmeal for breakfast, then I think there is a problem there. In fact, there are lots of problems like that, and not just from eating animal products. These problems pretty much all stem from greed and excess.

I consider myself a vegan (mostly, although I don't like all of the labels that can be attached to that), maybe you could call me a plant eater instead, because I might have a little turkey at thanksgiving. I think it is more important to focus on trying to live a life that is selfless, compassionate, and forgiving, rather than focus solely on the act of not eating animal products. What you will find is that you will most likely eat a lot less animal products (if any), have greater care for the environment, and generally make more informed choices because you will realize just how living your life day to day can have such a deep impact on so much of our world.

Ok! Rant over!

Hey Nat, thanks for the info... I especially liked the "Salmonella Sandwich" cartoon at Bizarro: http://www.bizarro.com/vegan/vegan_cartoon13.htm

Hey Michael, thanks for your comments.
So true! BTW, the Farm to Fork site http://www.ca4a.org/info/farmtofork.html was pretty intense. Great photos and videos though. Are there any film producers or script writers out there? Perhaps a reality TV show on food production would help the vegan cause?

dtougas, I agree with your cat-and-mouse view of survival. Remember the old bumper stickers that said "Animals are kind to dumb people"? I saw one once that said "Animals Eat dumb people". I have a great respect for (some) hunters, who learn the behavior of the animal the wish to kill, stalk it for hours, kill it, eat it, say a prayer for the animal they killed, and try to use as much of the animal as they can. A hunter friend of mine once said, "Until you have stalked an animal through the woods, tracking its sign, and killed it and eaten it, you are not a Part of nature, you are just an observer." This is a far cry, however, from the conditions shown on the Farm to Fork site listed above.

But I think where Nat and Michael are coming from is that our human intelligence allows us to move beyond the cat-and-mouse view of survival. We can still get all the nutrients we need and reduce the impact on the environment by changing our diet. But by keeping our diets as they are we encourage and, in fact, help create the demand that drives the killing-for-profit food industry. Encouraging these practices to continue, and providing monetary support for the same, is what they consider "evil".

(Nat and Michael: I hate to put words in your mouths, so correct me if I misunderstood your posts.)

I completely agree, I hope my post did not come across otherwise. All I was trying to say is that I don't think that actual act of eating an animal product is evil. Just like eating chocolate, drinking coffee, or putting gas in the car isn't evil. They aren't things we need to live a healthful life. Yet when we get "addicted" to these things, they cause us as a society to do evil things when we get greedy and want lots of it for really cheap.

Hey Sirdle, well said!!! Wow, for somebody that isnt vegan yet, you sure are a great animal advocate In fact, I couldnt have said it more succinctly myself. Cannot speak for Michael, but what you have I pretty much meant, yes - with only one further qualification - ethical vegans beleive that animals have rights - that they are not ours to eat anymore than the next door neighbour. So animal welfare - that animals should be eaten so long as they are killed humanely - is not a :vegan" belief. (But that wefarist posture is certainly better than somebody who doesnt care at all about how animals are tortured).

Tdouglas, the point is that we are not generally in a life or death survival situationas you describe, and thus, there is no ethical justification for eating meat. We do it to indulge our appetities, our tastes. It is gluttonous self-indulgence and we should expect and try for better than that because animals are completely at human mercy. And, humans, being the "superior" species, should know and do better. WE have the ability to reason, and to know the difference between right and wrong. And knowledge isnt just power, but obligation. Just because a cat tortures a mouse, that is hardly a justification for us eating Turkey at Thanksgiving or any other time for that matter.

"An animal’s inability to understand and adhere to our rules is as irrelevant as a child’s or a person with a developmental disability’s inability to do so. Animals are not always able to choose to change their behaviors, but adult human beings have the intelligence and ability to choose between behaviors that hurt others and behaviors that do not hurt others. When given the choice, it makes sense to choose compassion." As the species with the capacity for moral, rational thought and behaviour, we have the obligation to do so. With 'superiority' or greatness, afterall, comes responsibility - one that humans who like the taste of animals like to ignore.

I beleive that empathy and compassion are what can heal this world. Put yourself in the other being shoes, and do as you would wish them to do.

As one person said, "All beings tremble before violence. All fear death. All value their own lives. See yourself in other living things. Then who can you hurt? What harm can you cause?"

Veganism isnt about perfection or personal purity. As has been stated at nauseaum on other threads, it is about reducing suffering.

Please read the following threads on this site as they may be of interest:

"Why are you vegan", "What does veganism mean to you" "Vegan Elitism" , "Think God would be vegan",

You will see that people have different perspectives, some of which may anger you, some of which you may agree with, some of which you came to eventually believe and understand.

But, ethical vegans beleive that animals have the right to live their lives free of human molestation, and they reject speciesm. I have written elsewhere that genocide of my people has caused me to be in the position to see, clearly than most others, that "They are inferior because they are different" attitude is a cancer in this world that needs to be eliminated if we ever truly will know peace. This applies to animals too. It requires a paradigm shift, but if humans have already demonstrated the capacity for such a shift in consciousness and in the realtionship between people and animals, then there is hope.

Okay now maybe I will let another ethical vegan step in so I dont monopolize this thread. Cant help it - i am passionate about compassion for animals.

And lastly, while you may "treat" yourself to Turkey on Thanksgiving, please remain mindful that Thanksguiving is no treat for the animals that are violently murdered for their tasty flesh.

may ALL innocent beings be happy and free of suffering,
nat

EDITTED TO ADD: OOPS I WENT TO SUBMIT THIS AND SAW THAT YOUR CLARIFIED YOUR POSITION.

Ya that was a good one too. I think my favourite is the one where they put McDonalds in the trap and say "SSHH. The test subjec is coming."

As well as the one with the hamburger helper truck that smashed into the slaughterhouse and you see all the cows running out, running for their lives. Get it - "hamburger helper".

peace
Bizarro is a really talented cartoonist.
In case anybody else reading this is curious, you can view his animal rights cartoons at www.bizarro.com - just click on animal stuff.

I doubt that any network would touch it, and at any rate, even if they considered it, the vested corporate interests in maintaining the status quo of farm animals would fight this tooth and nail, and win.

nat

"Choose the side of the weak and the oppressed, not the powerful oppressors. Neutrality helps the oppressors. Take action now. Go vegan for life."

Murder is evil. Do you agree?

Good.

Eating animals is murder.

Generally, it really IS as simple as Michael puts it - whether we like to admit that to ourselves or not.

Animals kill each other.

Therefore, animals are evil?

i think the difference between the situation of an animal killing an animal and a human killing an animal when such a killing is not a life or death struggle is self-evident, and at any rate, it has been touched on above. Not sure why you are not seeing it.

I guess I have trouble with the word "murder".

Murder is a legal concept which defines the conditions under which killing another human being is wrong and should be punished by law. For examle, killing in self-defense, if justified, would not be murder, even though it would involve the killing of another person.

Eating animals, or plants for that matter, involves the killing of living things, but I don't consider this murder, and I don't think this is necessarily evil... which I guess is why I am not an "ethical vegan" (see Natalie's post).

Sirdle, you are just an ethical vegan waiting to happen!

snuffing the life of another who doesnt want you to is murder.

Killing in self-defense is still murder, but it is "justified" under the circumstances and thus isnt morally culpable murder.

If I am attacked by a bear and I defend myself by killing if that is what it must come down to, then I have murdered the bear or the robber or the rapist or whatever, but it is not morally wrong because it was in self defense.

Eating animals requires murder that is not morally justifiable. Even if they are murdered humanely. Selfish, self-indulgent reasons are not ethical reasons.