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 Post subject: slaugterhouse regulations
PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2005 6:28 pm 
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Manatee
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In most of the PETA information it says that animals are abused and murdered before they are killed. When hearing the PETA stories it almost seems as if the only way to kill an animal is to cut it open while it is still alive so it suffers terribly.
Recently I found out that there laws and regulations in the Netherlands saying that animals must be tranquilized before they are killed. This way the animals don't feel any pain. The tranquilizing usually happens through some gas. And in the biggest slaughterhouse in the Netherlands cows are first tranquilized, and then get shot in the head. This causes an instant death.
Meat is still murder, but it isn't very smart to try and convince someone to give up meat with false arguments. If that person found out about the argument not applying in that specific country it might develop a sort of anti vegan/vegetarian feeling. So, does anyone have any information about in which country's animal slaughter is regulated this way?
And if you are a vegan/vegetarian to reduce the killing/suffering of animals: Why would you drive an extra distance to the veganstore(and kill about 10 flys with your car), and not just buy a piece of meat(suffering free, as desribed above) in the supermarket? This would mean you are responsible for the death of 1 cow, but saved the live of 10 flies. Does anyone have any useable arguments against that(no arguments like, you can walk or cycle to the veggie store).
For me the reason for not eating meat is becouse it is disgusting to eat a dead animal. That is the way I felt about it ever since I was about 5 years old.
I am not trying to be anti vegan or something, just interested to know more and maybe a bit anti PETA.

greetings


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 13, 2005 1:06 am 
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The problem with laws like that is just that they are laws. How is the enforcement? Who makes sure the law is carried out? In the U.S. we have "humane" legislation, but it is ignored frequently. PETA probably is not wrong on this one, even in the netherlands.


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 13, 2005 4:51 am 
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Yes, undercover inspections of slaughterhouses uncover the illegal and cruel activities. It is easier for farmers to kill animals without having to stun / tranquilize the animals properly. It's also easier and less expensive for a farmer to ignore an injured or sick animal and leave them in a cell somewhere to die on their own, instead of get a vet to check it out. It's also easier and less expensive for farmers to perform neutering 'operations' on animals without anaesthetic. In this country (England) all those things are illegal in theory, but undercover research shows a frightening percentage of farms ignore this. When someone is arguing with me about animal slaughter etc, I always stick to the absolute facts about killing being wrong and exploitation and captivity, which are things that cannot be debated, they happen on every farm.

With regards to the frankly stupid argument about killing flies; by existing and walking anywhere you will have killed millions of insects accidentally. This doesn't mean you should also deliberately kill other animals such as cows, pigs etc. Nonsensical. No matter what is done, insects will get trampled on. The only thing that can be done is to kill oneself in order to have no impact on physical suffering and death of other creatures. But I am too selfish to kill myself right now.


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 13, 2005 3:37 pm 
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Richard, yet again you are awesome, but you probably already knew that...


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 13, 2005 4:07 pm 
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\ :o /


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 13, 2005 5:24 pm 
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Even if you kill yourself you have an inpact on the physical suffering and death of other creatures. There will have to be funeral arrangements and stuff, this off course will contribute to the wellbeing of the meat eating undertakers and such. And this will cause all of you relatives to drive to the funeral with their cars and killing thousands of insects.
And if you try to avoid this and kill yourself on a deserted Island or something, there will be a search operation which involves a lot of investigations and search actions by car and such. This will also contribute to insect death.

And in the Netherlands the biggest slaughterhouse realy does hire someone to fire a bullet through the head of a cow all day long. So no matter what undercover investigations show about other slaughterhouses, in this case you can save 10 insect lives by deliberately letting 1 cow get killed. And yes no matter what is done, insects will get trampled on. But I thought being vegan was about reducing the amount of killing/suffering.
Although what Richard wrote was the truth, it was not the argument I was looking for.


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 13, 2005 7:27 pm 
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gym hater, really, who would put the life of a house fly over that of a cow?
you need to accept that we all have an ecological footprint - we cannot exist in isolation without affecting others. inevitably we will accidentally crush some bugs but it cant be helped. as a matter of fact today whilst walking along i picked up a bumble bee (which was in harms way on a pavement/sidewalk and cold, as the sun had gone in, so it couldnt fly - happens quite alot in scotland!) and warmed it til it could fly again. it is not that i do not care, only that if i cared about every ant i ever stood on i would go mad.

veganism is about reducing animal suffering as much as possible. there are simply things that will happen as a result of our existence.

jonathan

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 13, 2005 8:46 pm 
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Right on johnathan.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Aug 14, 2005 4:22 am 
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Manatee
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jonathan wrote:
it is not that i do not care, only that if i cared about every ant i ever stood on i would go mad.


That is the same reason some of my friends give for eating meat!!
They say: it is not that i do not care, only that if i cared about every cow that would get slaughtered i would go mad.

And just like Jonathan picking up the bumble bee and warming it up so it can fly, a meat eating friend of mine brought me a nest of injured baby rabbits who had lost their mother.

So you only do what you want to do, you're not doing what you can do.

The stuff about the ecological footprint makes sense, and if you didn't say the quoted sentence I would have had nothing to say anymore:)


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Aug 14, 2005 5:49 am 
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Even if everyone was vegan, there were no slaughterhouses, no cars, no trains, no buses, no airplanes, insects would still die in their millions due to us stepping on them. It has nothing to do with veganism, it's just an inevitability of being alive that we can't help.

I don't know why you argue with my killing-myself concept. Yes, killing myself would probably involve a funeral etc, which lasts how long? A day? And preparations maybe a week or a month or whatever, and doctors doing a check on my body yadda yadda. But then I am dead after that, no more impact on the world, so even if my impact continues for a few weeks after death, after that I have no impact, other than feed a few worms. This is the least impact I can have, being dead.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Aug 14, 2005 11:56 am 
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Manatee
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There will still be relatives driving to the graveyard to see youre grave erery once in a while:)


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