Vegan Bodybuilding & Fitness

Healthy Food Defines You
It is currently Thu Aug 21, 2014 9:01 pm

All times are UTC - 5 hours




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 52 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next
Author Message
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Sep 01, 2005 11:42 am 
Offline
Elephant
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jun 23, 2005 3:39 pm
Posts: 1108
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland
kollision wrote:

In other words, use the cause as a scape goat? Ok I understand (althought i still believe it is wrong, but I just understand) if you loot in the means of survival, but this? BEER?! ELECTRONICS?! Now that is unacceptable.

And the insurance will pay for it?

Looting is looting and it is a crime. If I had a store there and someone broke in and took all my stuff, I wouldnt just dismiss and say "Eh, they are in a storm, so I dont care if they steal my stuff".


no crime is clear cut. i see nothing wrong in stealing from those who either have insurance or pay their workers so little that they leave them no choice. do you know that 2/3 of all armed robberies at mcdonalds are committed by staff/ex-staff. if the employers actually treated their staff with respect then they wouldnt have these problems.
of course the actions of business execs towards their staff arent legally crimes, so they get off, free of any punishment, taking all the wealth.

if you believe that a crime is a crime irrespective of personal circumstances or econonic pressures, then you really should join the army or police.

i think that all businesses in NO are expecting losses during the huricanne - what is the difference if the water takes the TV, or some guy on 5bucks an hour down at the local Walmart. selling that TV might feed his family for a month. the only people who come off worse are the insurance companies, for whom i have already expressed my lack of affection.

regarding the specific bit about hypothetically owning a store there; i would probably give away as much stuff as i could get away with claiming on the insurance. the system takes so much from the individual, its time that we got something back.

jonathan

_________________
Squat
Press
Eat
Repeat


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Sep 01, 2005 11:52 am 
Offline
Rabbit
User avatar

Joined: Mon May 30, 2005 2:37 pm
Posts: 182
Has anyone discussed sending vegan food and supplies to the victims. Our agency is organizing a Katrina relief drive and they are requesting certain kinds of foods like cereals, MREs, canned food that don't need to be heated, etc. I'm trying to get people to donate vegan stuff as I'm sure a lot of what they get won't be.
Any ideas appreciated...


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Sep 01, 2005 2:13 pm 
Offline
Stegosaurus

Joined: Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm
Posts: 3110
Skinnydipper,

Cats can swim? I have two cats and this is news to me. I would have to see it to believe it.

Anybody else here thinks that cats CAN swim? Please share.

Jonathan, as far as your sentiment that the only people in the end that lose out are insurance companies with all this looting and stuff, your wrong. Insurance companies arent dumb - they simply pass the costs on to consumers like me and you. SO when we have idiots looting for stuff like DVD players, i-pods, and shit like that that does not go to one's survival, there GREED ends up increasing insurance premiums which innocent people have to pay. So insurance companies dont lose out - we lose out. The innocent sole proprietor who is running an honest and modest store loses out. Why is he undeserving of our sympathy? I am sory, but I dont want to end up paying for somebody else's greed. You need to steal water and food to stay alive and feed your family - then go ahead. I would do the same. But I have no sympathy for greedy peoiple who take advantage of a tragic situation and steal "luxury" items.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Sep 01, 2005 2:59 pm 
Offline
Gorilla
User avatar

Joined: Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm
Posts: 731
ive seen cats swim. they aboslutely hate it and are not good at it but ive seen a cat swim before.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Sep 01, 2005 3:18 pm 
Offline
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm
Posts: 6067
Location: England
Image

Some breed(s) of cat seem to enjoy swimming. I am pretty sure most cats don't like water and would avoid it, but I think most of them could scramble out of it. I don't think they would just sink and die. Although I don't want to experiment.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Sep 01, 2005 3:28 pm 
Offline
Gorilla
User avatar

Joined: Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm
Posts: 731
that cat's a witch! it floats!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Sep 01, 2005 3:30 pm 
Offline
Elephant
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jun 23, 2005 3:39 pm
Posts: 1108
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland
compassionategirl wrote:
Skinnydipper,

Cats can swim? I have two cats and this is news to me. I would have to see it to believe it.

Anybody else here thinks that cats CAN swim? Please share.

Jonathan, as far as your sentiment that the only people in the end that lose out are insurance companies with all this looting and stuff, your wrong. Insurance companies arent dumb - they simply pass the costs on to consumers like me and you. SO when we have idiots looting for stuff like DVD players, i-pods, and shit like that that does not go to one's survival, there GREED ends up increasing insurance premiums which innocent people have to pay. So insurance companies dont lose out - we lose out. The innocent sole proprietor who is running an honest and modest store loses out. Why is he undeserving of our sympathy? I am sory, but I dont want to end up paying for somebody else's greed. You need to steal water and food to stay alive and feed your family - then go ahead. I would do the same. But I have no sympathy for greedy peoiple who take advantage of a tragic situation and steal "luxury" items.


by saying that you are ignoring the fact that it is the insurance companies screwing us in the first place. they are in the wrong, not the looters. my point for it being particularly acceptable at the moment is that most of New Orleans is under water at the moment so it would most likely be written off as storm damage.

blaming the looters is simply tackling the symptoms of social decay. you need to address the reason why they are doing it. and it really isnt greed. can you blame people for seizing upon the oportunity to get free stuff in a society where you have to pay for everything? no way! if i were in the same situation, having seen half my home float away, then i would probably grab something of value from the the local walmart so that i had something of value to sell afterwards.

we both agree that the insurance companies are in the wrong, so lets tackle that, rather than putting down some guy with 4kids, trying to scratch out a living on $5.15 an hour down at your gas station. blaming the looters is like people blaming immigrants for unemployment, when its actually fat cat bosses outsourcing to foreign countries to make even more profit (thankyou veganmadre for that quote!). its the people above us the heirachy that are responsible - lets do something about that for a change instead of shitting on the people below us.

jonathan

_________________
Squat
Press
Eat
Repeat


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Sep 01, 2005 3:35 pm 
Offline
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm
Posts: 6067
Location: England
Quote:
V VII Hero
that cat's a witch! it floats!


When it's done, I guess we'll have to burn it. That'll teach it


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Sep 01, 2005 3:44 pm 
Offline
Manatee
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jun 01, 2005 12:40 pm
Posts: 276
Location: Houston, TX
V VII Hero wrote:
that cat's a witch! it floats!


It clearly weighs the same as a duck. ;)


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Sep 01, 2005 4:12 pm 
Offline
Stegosaurus

Joined: Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm
Posts: 3110
Jonathan,

There have been many times in my life where I have been flat out poor. Currently, I make shitty income at the moment that doesnt even begin to cover my bills or my tuition. You have NO idea about teh kind of financial stress that I am under. But in my opinion that does NOT give me the RIGHT to rob somebody else who happens to be better off than me. WE are not shitting on the people below "us" at all. But there are tons of destitute people out there that dont resort to stealing. Why should these innocent, destitute people have to pay higher prices in stores or higher insurance premiums because some others think the difficulty of their situations gives them card blanche to do as they please?


Even having said that, however, I am more sympathetic to sole proprietor's who try to make an honest living with decent prices than I am to mega billion dollar corporations.

So, let us take my uncle, who runs a modest clothing store. He barely breaks even himself and has enough to sustain him, his wife and mother in law. he charges very fair prices (which is probably why he typcailly only breaks even) and puts in long hours at his store, 6 days a week. WE have a flooding, and local Torontonians help themselves to my uncle's merchanise by stealing it. I am not cool with that (whether it is my uncle or not). That doesnt seem right to me, especially if the items bieng stolen were not essential items like clothing but the "extras" like electronics - things that you dont need to survive. So according to you, because I see my home get washed away, that gives me the right to steal from this man? It isnt the store owners fault that my home got washed away. You say well, the store owner's insurance will cover it. But what about the home owner? Didnt he have insurance? Furthermore, like I said, the store owners insurance may cover it but then his premiums go up so he ends up subsidizing the unfortunate people to which you refer. That doesnt seem fair. Why should the store owner subsidize the looters?

I agree that insurance companies are despicable. But I dont think the solution to undervalued labour and poverty is stealing from those that are better off, especially when we are not talking about mega corporations. That is not going to get to teh root of the problem. Clearly, gigantic corporations who exploit their employees and torture animals deserve no sympathy, UNLIKE the store owner I described above. But I cannot agree with any suggestion that the innocent store owner should subsidize the looters, which is essentially what would happen.

The images I saw on tv were not of Walmart getting looted, but what appeared to be store owners like my uncle.

Not cool.


Last edited by compassionategirl on Thu Sep 01, 2005 4:27 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Sep 01, 2005 4:16 pm 
Offline
Stegosaurus

Joined: Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm
Posts: 3110
jonathan wrote:

blaming the looters is simply tackling the symptoms of social decay.
jonathan


Even if I concede that point, stealing or looting is not a solution that gets to the root of the problem of social decay either.

Plus, I repeat all I said in my above post about the looters versus the innocent store owner. I dont think the rights of the looters outweigh his rights not to have his store looted after years of honest hard work and his right not to hve to pay more for insurance.

And yes, i agree that insurance companies suck and this is a reflection on just how badly they suck.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Sep 01, 2005 4:34 pm 
Offline
Manatee
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jun 01, 2005 12:40 pm
Posts: 276
Location: Houston, TX
The ex- did take all the cats and dogs.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Sep 01, 2005 4:57 pm 
Offline
Elephant
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jun 23, 2005 3:39 pm
Posts: 1108
Location: Edinburgh, Scotland
fair enough, your uncle is justified in not giving anything way. but i am talking, in the main, about mega corps, who already screw everyone they can. from what i heard it was very much the walmarts that were getting looted.

insurance companies will use any excuse to hike the prices of their policies, and the price will go up after the hurricane as they are going to be prone to it. we need locally based non profit insurance organisations - ie everyone pays into an account, and should anything happen, money is paid out to those who pay in.

are we agreed that the main repercusion of looting is increased insurance premiums? if so, is that the only moral concern? i think it is. getting something for free is not the issue. these people are already heavily exploited and put far more into society than they get back. i argue that as the insurance premium is going to go up irrespective, that they might as well, as all the high tech consumer goods are most likely going to end up being washed away and useless.

to summarise my ramblings, insurance companies and mega corps are the main problem (not to mention the terrible exploitative capitalist free market) so looting is going to be a symptom of this. i argue that a society which respected everyone would have little or no looting in such situations. but since so many people are exploited, it is understandable that it happens.

to use a metaphor. take an abused wife. for years she has put up with verbal, physical and sexual abuse from her husband. one day, something snaps, and she shoots him. without understanding the circumstances, you would say that she killed him so is morally reprehensable. but seeing as she suffered so long it is excusable, though maybe not the best course of action. maybe she should have sought a divorce or non violent means. but in the end, the blame for the killing (and looting) lies on the shoulders of the abuser (husband/government/mega corp).

jonathan

_________________
Squat
Press
Eat
Repeat


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Sep 01, 2005 6:47 pm 
Offline
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Fri Apr 08, 2005 8:05 pm
Posts: 21037
Location: Austin, TX
Renee,

I think this may have been missed:

Quote:
Has anyone discussed sending vegan food and supplies to the victims. Our agency is organizing a Katrina relief drive and they are requesting certain kinds of foods like cereals, MREs, canned food that don't need to be heated, etc. I'm trying to get people to donate vegan stuff as I'm sure a lot of what they get won't be.
Any ideas appreciated...


I've thought about this as well. I personally don't have much money, and neither does Vegan Bodybuilding & Fitness, but I've also thought about Vegan Bodybuilding & Fitness making a donation to the relief fund.

So I'll work on that locally and I can probably get lots of things donated.

Thanks for the reminder of a very good idea. I'm sure there are many many homeless animals too, who need food, shelter, beds (domestic animals who are used to them), and things like that.

I will start working on this right away. I'll gather up lots of vegan foods and supplies to send over.

-Robert

_________________

Check out my Vegan Bodybuilding & Fitness Book on Amazon http://www.amazon.com/Vegan-Bodybuildin ... 497&sr=1-1


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Sep 01, 2005 9:16 pm 
Offline
Elephant

Joined: Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm
Posts: 1448
Quote:
no crime is clear cut. i see nothing wrong in stealing from those who either have insurance or pay their workers so little that they leave them no choice. do you know that 2/3 of all armed robberies at mcdonalds are committed by staff/ex-staff. if the employers actually treated their staff with respect then they wouldnt have these problems.
of course the actions of business execs towards their staff arent legally crimes, so they get off, free of any punishment, taking all the wealth.

if you believe that a crime is a crime irrespective of personal circumstances or econonic pressures, then you really should join the army or police.

i think that all businesses in NO are expecting losses during the huricanne - what is the difference if the water takes the TV, or some guy on 5bucks an hour down at the local Walmart. selling that TV might feed his family for a month. the only people who come off worse are the insurance companies, for whom i have already expressed my lack of affection.

regarding the specific bit about hypothetically owning a store there; i would probably give away as much stuff as i could get away with claiming on the insurance. the system takes so much from the individual, its time that we got something back.

jonathan


Stealing is stealing. You see what these people are doing? They are stealing cars now. They are starting brawls, shooting guns, etc. They are stealing for personal gain, not to help their family. So now you are going to tell me that the LA Riots was ok because they were stealing stuff that could help their family?

People need to have some freakin honor and live with some dignity, not take advantage at someone elses expense. Hell, if the company says, "Ok, you can take our stuff" I'm all for it. But just taking it with no regard to anyone, taking electronics, cars, etc. thats just messed up.

Also illegal immigrants are a cause for unemployment. Legal people that live here lose their jobs because illegals come in, and take a 2 dollar an hour wage, therefore results in the firing of workers there because its cheap labor.


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 52 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next

All times are UTC - 5 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  



{ ASACP_CREDITS }
{ ASACP_CREDITS }
{ ASACP_CREDITS } Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group