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 Post subject: Forgive me for I have sinned
PostPosted: Fri Sep 23, 2005 4:40 pm 
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Manatee
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Ever thing a really bad thought, so bad you don’t what to tell anyone because you don’t what them to think badly of you. But at the same time you want to tell someone so they can tell you you’re not crazy. Here is my bad thought… I work at a coffee shop/café. We serve permade sandwiches some veg, some not. In general I don’t feel like I am a better person then someone who eats meat, and I don’t think any less of them. Often I feel they are uninformed or misguided. Either about what animals have to endure or about how easy it really is to live a HEALTHY vegan life. But sometimes we get very obese customers. Often I see then in scoters, and although it could be for other health reasons, I feel it is likely because they wouldn’t be able to support their on weight for any extended length of time. I often feel very repulsed when they order a sandwich with meat. Some times physically sick. I wonder how anyone could cause so much suffering to animals and in turn to themselves. I often resent them for their choice, as if they had no right to take a life to satisfy their gluttony. :(

Am I a bad person?


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 23, 2005 4:49 pm 
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I think people who eat meat are nasty, and I don't have a problem thinking this way. People who are over-weight, my main problem with them is that they will take up time and space and resources at a hospital if they continue their lifestyle, which leaves less time and space and resources for other people who haven't deliberately caused themselves harm. If I need a transplant operation or something, I don't want to think I am waiting for surgery while a fat person is having a heart-transplant just because they ate too much during their life, that seems messed up.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 23, 2005 5:37 pm 
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Gorilla
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I think we are our own "gods" and determine or own sense of morality. so therefore only you can decide.


on a side note:
I sometimes get very disgusted as well.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 23, 2005 9:57 pm 
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Elephant
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I've been obese and it was a horrible period in my life full of gluttony but also tremendous self-sacrifice. Obesity is a shame and also a disgust. I surely don't consider you a "bad person" for your anger and irritation. Given my history, however, I also feel horrible for overweight individuals because that period of my life was full of anger, hurt and depression.


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 Post subject: Re: Forgive me for I have sinned
PostPosted: Sat Sep 24, 2005 4:17 am 
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madcat wrote:
I wonder how anyone could cause so much suffering to animals and in turn to themselves. I often resent them for their choice, as if they had no right to take a life to satisfy their gluttony. :(

Am I a bad person?


No, it makes you an evolved and morally conscious person, not to mention a compassionaste one. I just dont see why you only feel that resentment toward OBESE meat eaters. I dont think ANYBODY has the right to take a life for gluttony, and it is still disgusting and shameful when somebody that weighs 60 pounds soaking wet does it.


Last edited by compassionategirl on Sat Sep 24, 2005 4:21 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Sep 24, 2005 4:20 am 
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Stegosaurus

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V VII Hero wrote:
I think we are our own "gods" and determine or own sense of morality. so therefore only you can decide.


.


hero, this sounds like the same moral relativity theory crap that meat eaters would spew. :shock: :? :x


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Sep 24, 2005 1:36 pm 
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Gorilla
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compassionategirl wrote:
V VII Hero wrote:
I think we are our own "gods" and determine or own sense of morality. so therefore only you can decide.


.


hero, this sounds like the same moral relativity theory crap that meat eaters would spew. :shock: :? :x


well I Cant tell a person if their thoughts are "bad". I can only speak of my own thoughts.

example: if I was to start a thread here stating how wrong alcohol consumtion was, I would have many vegans here defending the fact that consumtion is okay, but I think it is one of the worst things to do to oneself. so therefore I cannot tell someone else if they are "bad" or not, because of their thoughts. because when it comes down to it, it is the indivudal that will decide if their thoughts are right or wrong.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Sep 24, 2005 3:14 pm 
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Stegosaurus

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Raping somebody is wrong.

Child pornography is wrong.

Needlessly killing animals for food, clothing etc. is wrong.

Killing innocent people for no reason is wrong.

And the list goes on.


I have no hesitation in telling people - who in their own heads think any of the above is right - that they are WRONG.

My point is that yes, "to each his own" as the saying goes, but NOT if your actions are not only hurting just yourself, but innocent others.

Now this is getting slightly of topic than what madcat was inquiring about, but i could not resist posting this anyway.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Sep 24, 2005 4:39 pm 
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Gorilla
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understood.

but does having "bad" thoughts make an individual bad? or is it putting those thoughts into action that makes the individual "bad"?


I dont think one can be bad for simply thinking something. however when you put those thoughts into action, then it becomes something to be placed on a moral scale, and weighed out as either bad or good.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Sep 24, 2005 4:42 pm 
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Yeah compash, I think Topher was saying relating to Madcat, their thoughts shouldn't necessarily be policed. Even if they have a negative thought about fat people or meat-eaters, they aren't taking a negative physical action.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Sep 24, 2005 5:11 pm 
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it is very hard to definitively define what is right and what is wrong. there are things that are objectively wrong, but then many things that depend on the situation.

killing is wrong, unless it is unavoidable in self defense.
causing suffering is wrong, if it is unnecessary

there are many such things like that, but most can be covered by the above two rules.

in my view, for over 90% of the world population, eating any animal product is wrong, as it is a case of causing death and suffering unnecessarily. i think that this is an objective moral wrong, though almost everyone ignores this.

i think that generally, provided that you cause no suffering to anyone else, you are entitled to do as you please. but then, almost every action has consequences.
you could refer to mills harm theory that states that no one has the right to intervene with anything that you do (provided that you harm no one else) even if you are likely to harm yourself. paternalistic intervention is insuffient grounds.
anyways - you could argue that almost any action you take has consequence, so all actions are open to intervention. seeing as eating animal products has such a profound effect on so much, intervetion is perfecly justified.
intervetion could be any range of things. informing people of alternatives is one take - blowing up meat trucks is another. both are morally justified.

there is nothing wrong about feeling disgust madcat. i hate it that people think nothing of eating animal products, and despite my best efforts i do look down on them. even though i was once in the same situation, i no longer can understand how people can ignore animal suffering.

jonathan

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Sep 24, 2005 7:16 pm 
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Stegosaurus

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Jonathan, it sounds to me like you too reject "moral relativity" theory crap and are saying that there is an OBJECIVE truth about morality and what is wrong. So I agree with you on that point.

and I also agree with Jonathan madcat - about feeling disgust with meat eaters, only my disgust would be felt with ALL meat eaters, not just fat ones. It is just as disgusting to me to see a 85 pound person stuffing his face with dead animals as it is if it were a 200 pound person doing so.

Unnecessary animal eating is disgusting, barbaric, uncivilized and neanderthal - like. It is vile and abhorrent. It turns my stomach. period, whether you are fat skinny tall short black white man woman christian jewish buddhist athiest agnostic etc etc - disgusting.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Sep 24, 2005 7:19 pm 
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Stegosaurus

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V VII Hero wrote:


but does having "bad" thoughts make an individual bad? or is it putting those thoughts into action that makes the individual "bad"?




yup, i agree with you hero that it is the latter.

but what i was trying to convey that the disgust madcat felt was in my opinion perfectly justified. She has every right to feel repulsed, like I said above.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Sep 25, 2005 3:03 am 
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Manatee
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Richard wrote:
I think people who eat meat are nasty, and I don't have a problem thinking this way. People who are over-weight, my main problem with them is that they will take up time and space and resources at a hospital if they continue their lifestyle, which leaves less time and space and resources for other people who haven't deliberately caused themselves harm. If I need a transplant operation or something, I don't want to think I am waiting for surgery while a fat person is having a heart-transplant just because they ate too much during their life, that seems messed up.


Richard,

as far as I understand from the posts in this forum you and Topher (and surely others too) like Hard Rock music. What if you would need a (I don't know the English word) hearing tool, because your ears have sufferd from the horrible noise you are producing with your band? Or by listening too often and too loudly to hard rock music? This tool has to be produced, which pollutes the envoirnment... Does this make a bad person of you?

I like to ride a motor bike just for fun. What if I loose control, get an accident and would need help in a hospital. Who has to wait for surgery? Me, because it is a self-caused emergency or somebody else with a 'normal' problem? Am I a bad person?

What about the bodybuilders here? They are vegan. Bravo. But when Robert is speaking about 4000-5000 kcals he needs a day or up to 300 grams of protein... To build up your body in a NOT natural way and consuming food of 2-3 persons... Is this good or bad? Not eating meat doesn't make you good!

We all are bad people in a way, which cannot be avoided if you want to make part of our cruel society. I worry about the fact that people are using the words good and bad too often. Things are sometimes just like they are. I don't have to judge all the time. By the way a fat meat eater is disgusting to me, but it doesn't make him or her a bad person. I know fat people, who are more active with human rights or animal rights than I am.
From a good / bad point of view Robert is a bad boy by consuming too much food, which he could better send to Africa... But his site about veganism is a very good thing showing other people an alternative lifestyle.

I try to see and appreciate the 'good' things in a person.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Sep 25, 2005 8:44 am 
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Yeah nobbi, my problem with over weight people isn't drastic at all. I feel the same way about over-weight people as I do about anyone else who deliberately puts themself in danger. I do the same when I make home wrestling movies: if one time I snapped my leg doing it and I went to the doctor, then I'd be taking up time for something pretty dumb. I wouldn't like it to come across in my post that I hate fat people, because I don't. I do hate people who eat meat though, it just happened that I was talking about them in the same post.

Fat people also consume more than they need, by definition, so they are very likely to produce more waste; more packaging from food that they buy, more garbage, more pollution. To me, being overweight isn't a huge deal, I don't judge people on it, there's just those couple of issues. I just wanted to bring them up in this thread, because I do think there are some minor negative things about being over-weight, to share with madcat. I don't think being over-weight makes you a bad person.


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