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BraddersTheDog
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#46 Postby BraddersTheDog » Wed Sep 26, 2007 3:42 am

Yes I suppose you could make an argument that meat hasn't helped develop our brains into what they are but it isn't a particularly rational one. It's a fact that in order for our brains to develop into what they are today we required a much higher intake of calories compared to other primates (who use roughly 8% RMR for brain development as opposed to our own 20-25% RMR). Now, where did these extra calories come from?
Did they come from eating a lot more fruit? It would have to have been a LOT more fruit and even if this is the case, it is also fact that we WERE eating meat (but of course, the fruit could have developed the brain and the meat/fish been irrelevant to its evolution [hmmm]). Hunter-gatherer communities are known to have eaten meat, and we are descended from the hunter-gatherer.

Science also agrees that in order for our brains to develop into what they are today, dietary changes were necessary; this coincides with the addition of meat to the diet. To ignore this is to be incredibly naive.

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#47 Postby Zack » Wed Sep 26, 2007 3:55 am

BraddersTheDog wrote:Yes I suppose you could make an argument that meat hasn't helped develop our brains into what they are but it isn't a particularly rational one. It's a fact that in order for our brains to develop into what they are today we required a much higher intake of calories compared to other primates (who use roughly 8% RMR for brain development as opposed to our own 20-25% RMR). Now, where did these extra calories come from?
Did they come from eating a lot more fruit? It would have to have been a LOT more fruit and even if this is the case, it is also fact that we WERE eating meat (but of course, the fruit could have developed the brain and the meat/fish been irrelevant to its evolution [hmmm]). Hunter-gatherer communities are known to have eaten meat, and we are descended from the hunter-gatherer.

Science also agrees that in order for our brains to develop into what they are today, dietary changes were necessary; this coincides with the addition of meat to the diet. To ignore this is to be incredibly naive.


Well said.

Also, the ability to cook resulted in an increased caloric intake. I believe seafood really had a lot to do with brain development due to omega 3's in them. That's my opinion though.
Last edited by Zack on Wed Sep 26, 2007 5:22 am, edited 1 time in total.
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BraddersTheDog
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#48 Postby BraddersTheDog » Wed Sep 26, 2007 4:24 am

veganpotter wrote:I think the evidence of meat helping our brain development is very meager at best. If anything meat has allowed humans to live in areas they otherwise wouldn't but there isn't anything in meat that you can't get from veggie based foods.


You're right but that doesn't mean that meat doesn't contain certain properties (eg. protein) more abundantly than veggies, and certainly that it is/was more readily available and as such a more feasible choice for our ancestors.

To assume that it is purely veggie based foods that have developed our brains is a hugley naive.

I agree with this. to say that eating meat and dairy has contributed to our mental development is also another presumption.


To say that it hasn't it a far bigger one and goes against a lot of scientific thinking.

saying that what we ate effected our brain's development is totally Lamarckian.


Lamarck is irrelevant here, I'm not saying that eating meat meant that a primate's offspring became more intelligent for any reason other than those in line with the standard theory of evolution. By having a diet higher in calories one species was able to use more of it's RMR for brain development. Each primate that developed it's brain (even a fraction) more than others will have been able to outperform it's competitors, and as such pass it's genes on more efficiently; where does Lamarck come into this? Your Lamarckian argument used in this context could just as easily be used to argue that no species should ever evolve at all because it can't pass it's characteristics directly onto it's offspring. Species' do evolve and part of this evolution (be it physical, neural etc.) is a direct result of it's diet.

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the Asocial Ape
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#49 Postby the Asocial Ape » Wed Sep 26, 2007 7:48 am

BraddersTheDog wrote:
Lamarck is irrelevant here, I'm not saying that eating meat meant that a primate's offspring became more intelligent for any reason other than those in line with the standard theory of evolution...


i misunderstood the argument, then.

i was saying i don't think there's anything special in meat that drove brain development.

personally, i think the ability to eat meat, and damn near anything else, along with our hands, and our generalist strategy, were the traits that contributed to our fitness, and evolutionary success.
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BraddersTheDog
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#50 Postby BraddersTheDog » Wed Sep 26, 2007 10:00 am

the Asocial Ape wrote:
BraddersTheDog wrote:

i was saying i don't think there's anything special in meat that drove brain development.


I agree, what is found in meat can be found in plants. It's not only the meat's substance but also its properties (i.e. it's not that meat is 'special', just that it contains higher proportions of substances such as protein which are/were more readily accessible hence helped drive brain development).

I find the idea of vegan bodybuilding quite fascinating and that's why I've come to the site. I'm interested to see what results are obtainable without eating meat products (although admittedly I wouldn't ever do this myself).

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#51 Postby veganpotter » Wed Sep 26, 2007 9:51 pm

I'm sorry but meat doesn't really have more protein that veggies do. And the thing is we all know now that pretty much everyone in the moder world eats too much protein to begin with so if anything it would have hindered us in that sense. Nobody "needs" 1g per pounds of bodyweight and less than half of that will do for pretty much everyone.

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#52 Postby BraddersTheDog » Thu Sep 27, 2007 9:05 am

OK, well actually generally speaking meat does contain more protein than veggies and like I said, the fact that it was a more feasible method of supplying the extra calories that were required for brain development means that it's highly likely that it greatly aided this process.

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#53 Postby MontanaVegan » Thu Sep 27, 2007 9:26 am

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought the brain was fueled by 100% carbohydrates
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#54 Postby veganpotter » Thu Sep 27, 2007 10:07 am

Protein is not really more abundant in meat...find the protein in 8oz of meat and 8oz of beans...I think you'll find beans have less water and has more weight in actual protein...same with nuts. And the point I was making is that we don't need that much protein and we never did...not to advance and not to even simply survive.

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#55 Postby BraddersTheDog » Fri Sep 28, 2007 6:18 am

MontanaVegan wrote:Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought the brain was fueled by 100% carbohydrates


I believe you are correct. However, brain growth and development is not the same as fuelling just like body growth and development is not the same as fuelling.

Protein is not really more abundant in meat...find the protein in 8oz of meat and 8oz of beans...I think you'll find beans have less water and has more weight in actual protein...same with nuts.


I accept your point, but finding several pounds of beans and peanuts is (or at least was) obviously far more difficult than finding that amount of meat. Therefore we ate meat and fish far more than veggies.

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#56 Postby Richard » Fri Sep 28, 2007 7:32 am

What is the point that you're making Bradders? It seems like you're trying to provide reasons for why you personally are not vegan, and trying to say why other people should stop being vegan. If that's not the case, then are you saying that some people don't know as much about nutrition as they think they do? That's a fair point, but not limited to vegans or indeed all vegans, and what you're saying about what humans may or may not have eaten in the past is pretty irrelevant, unless I missed something. Vegans clearly live healthily right now, and are not all unintelligent, ill or dying. So to say that meat has got us where we are today doesn't change the fact that veganism is a logical and ethical choice today.
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#57 Postby veganpotter » Fri Sep 28, 2007 7:35 am

Sure we ate more but that doesn't prove we needed it beyond the fact that we needed food in general. That fact is a far stretch from proving our brains developed thanks to the extra meat. If anything meat allowed people to live longer since hunger wasn't an issue in the winter...meaning nobody would die of starvation...thus much more time to actually learn...not more of a capacity. Then that can be handed down. If we chose to do so we could teach gorillas sign language(of course we have already) and if we left them alone they would more than likely hand that down. A well treated gorilla in captivity will live longer than one in the wild and this gives it the ability to learn more without any meat at all. You let them out in the wild then they'll teach that to offspring and so on and so on...they will also very likely develop this even more themselves. This is very likely what we did...of course we weren't captive but our diets let us live where we shouldn't have been living and extended lifespan for longer lives.

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New World Vegan
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#58 Postby New World Vegan » Sat Sep 29, 2007 12:27 am

This is a bit strong

No.....This is a bit strong
I hope that you do not
become sick from your lack of proper nutrition.


To be fair I just read through this thread .....he is not convinced.... the information he has been given - according to him - isn't cutting it.
It seems you read through the thread the same way Jack read the info he was given - maybe with a closed mind, maybe while watching TV.

I've been a science inthusiast for 24 years, but as I became wiser(less incredibly naive), I became disappointed in scientists. They need to see something in a beeker or they ignore it. They have closed minds, don't use common sense....and they're corrupt. There are still scientists who say the mind and body are NOT connected, and say a back ache is from a "slipped disc" and can't be from mental stress. Here, their education is actually getting in the way. Turns out, science is not reallity....it's just a way for us to understand reality. And it's limited.

And, science has been wrong SO many times.

To say that eating meat is an idea thought up by our 'twisted modern society' is just wrong.
I didn't mention meat. You read into what I said. So it seems you're looking for a debate on meat vs veg........on a vegan forum. Why?

In particular, eating fish and meat has helped develop our brains.

How do you know?

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#59 Postby DV » Mon Oct 01, 2007 8:08 am

A few good points were brought up in this thread but some were missed or not fully discussed.

First, it's not necessarily meat that helped with human development (and population explosion). If that were the case then cows should be evolving to take over the world - I mean, they're herbivores and we've been feeding them animal protein for years. But seriously, it was the ability to establish a CONSISTENT supply of calories from agriculture and a way of storing that food for lean times (dried grains, legumes, etc) that allowed humanity to rise to the top of the food chain.

As far as seafood and brain development, that's not too far off. However, the discussion of omega 6 vs. omega 3 essential fatty acids (with EPA and DHA in the family of 3s) and the physiology behind them is too much of an important topic to be hidden in a thread like this. Briefly, as Zack pointed out, DHA is needed for human fetus and newborn brain (and eye) development. Babies need a direct source of DHA and get it in the form of breast milk. Later in life, they can form DHA from ALA (omega 3 fatty acid parent chain). Unless their ratio of omega 6 to 3 is way off - as it is for many omnis and even more vegans. That's why omnis who eat a lot of fish along with a whole foods diet tend to have less disease than the general population, including vegans. This is a very important topic, again, and I'll eventually try to start this discussion on another thread - but I'm swamped with work right now and don't want to start it until I have more time!


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