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PostPosted: Thu Oct 06, 2005 4:38 pm 
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Gorilla

Joined: Tue Aug 16, 2005 5:54 pm
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Location: Corvallis, OR
I was 'only' vegetarian for the last 10 years; I didn't switch to vegan until this year.
Don't hate :(


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 06, 2005 5:17 pm 
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Stegosaurus

Joined: Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm
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ya, hate it is a strong word. I think it must be reserved for people who know about animal suffering (both human and non) and just dont give a shit at all.

peace


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 06, 2005 5:18 pm 
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Stegosaurus

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hey how is Kourtney's veganism coming along?

Miss vamprilla a lot. :( I think she forgot about us over here.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 06, 2005 5:22 pm 
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Elephant
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I too was a vegetarian for a couple of years before I became vegan and I think alot of vegans were as well. Let's not bash others on the road to veganism.

Don't worry -- imo no one is hating veggymeggy. 8) We all feel the need to let off some steam at times ....

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 06, 2005 5:32 pm 
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Site Admin
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I don't think daywalker was bashing vegetarians who intend to be vegan


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 06, 2005 5:38 pm 
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Gorilla

Joined: Tue Aug 16, 2005 5:54 pm
Posts: 778
Location: Corvallis, OR
I think Kourtney still doesn't have internet at her new place...I haven't seen her in a week or so, but I think the only time she's been online is when she's been over here....I need to give her a call! I get so busy and the only people I DO keep in touch with are online!
I think straight to veganism is a big jump for most people....I know it would have been tough for me to do all at once - of course I was also 11 when I went vegetarian...my parents were not exactly supportive of it but I'm pretty stubborn once I get an idea in my head. I'm pretty sure if I'd said I was going vegan then they'd have forced me to eat non-vegan food out of concern for my health, especially being at an age when I was just going through puberty.
I think what bothers me the most is people who claim vegetarianism to be "cool" or "trendy". Shortly after I became a vegetarian, when I was around 13 or so, I knew at least 10 other girls who began saying they were vegetarian. NONE of them lasted more than a month, and most of them cheated while they were still saying they were vegetarian. It was a rebellion thing I think, and a weight loss thing. (13 yr olds are crazy!)


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 06, 2005 5:40 pm 
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Elephant
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Location: Edinburgh, Scotland
its the ones that defend their postion as vegetarians without ever considering veganism. i wouldnt say that i hate them but i do strongly dislike them.

jonathan

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 06, 2005 5:42 pm 
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Elephant
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Location: Vegan Strength Cult, German HQ
Hi there, crazy kitten :D

madcat wrote:
Daywalker I think I was really awful to say you despise vegetarians.

Maybe i chose the wrong word. Contempt?

I think vegetarianism doesn't help animals at all. Telling vegetarians that you think they're "on the right way" doesn't help them one bit to get closer to veganism, i actually think it keeps them from getting there. They think it's okay to be vegetarian only. But by consuming milk and eggs, usually more than average meat eaters, they contribute just the same to animal plight.
I feel that vegetarians should know better. Meat eaters are careless, but at least they are consistent. Vegetarians often (not always) feel ethically superior, i have been mocked by vegetarians often enough for being "too extreme" - they are doing enough for the animals and milking doesn't hurt! :evil:

Quote:
But at least they are making a step in the right direction and I think you should give them credit for that.

As long as they are content with being vegetarian animals are suffering no less.
I don't "hate" vegetarians (i very very rarely do feel hate at all, i'd dare say never. Maybe anger sometimes, but hate? I don't think so), but i would never reassure them that they are doing fine, i keep encouraging them to go further towards veganism. I don't pat them on the shoulders too much (though i congratulate them for giving up meat).

Quote:
This is not a contest!

Of course not.

Quote:
It’s about helping animals and we should be greatful for anyone making a change in their life that contributes.

I don't think that being vegetarian contributes to the animal rights idea at all. Rather, i think that
- vegetarians consume in total about as much animal products or even more than meat eaters (more eggs, more dairy, as much leather).
- average consumers who talk with vegetarians agree that veganism is "extreme" and unnecessary for compassionate people
- vegetarianism (?) prevents vegetarians from getting vegan

Quote:
Vegetarians are already open minded, so why not try being their friend and just showing them how great a vegan lifestyle can be. In stead of playing some holier then thou crap. That’s not ganna win us vegan any points.

It's not about being "holier". I don't play that with meat eaters as well. But it's about arguments, and i find that vegetarians often and more reluctant to listen to reason than average consumers. Many think they are already at the top of development.
If they are really open minded, they will go vegan. I know too many people who call themselves "vegetarian" and still eat fish. (Or gelatine. Or chicken :evil: )
I cannot be good friend with people who are not vegan. I am friendly and i don't hate them, i can live aside them, but as long as they knowingly and willfully contribute to the plight they see, they can not be my close friend, or rather, i can not be their close friend.

It's sad that the world is full of egoistic, careless people. It could be a paradise.
I agree that vegetarism is a step in the right direction, but it's only the first and too many people stop the journey after that first step. When i said i despise vegetarians i just meant that it saddens me more that vegetarians argue against veganism than when meat eaters argue against vegetarism.
I hope you understand my point :)

love and peace,
Alex

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 06, 2005 5:43 pm 
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Stegosaurus

Joined: Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm
Posts: 3110
Richard wrote:
I don't think daywalker was bashing vegetarians who intend to be vegan


yes I agree Richard.

Meg, yes I think you are right about jumping straight to veganism, and I think that many vegans were veg first. So even if Kourtney is working on being just veg or strict veg for now, or veg with a lot less milk and egg consumption, then I still give her props!!!! I remember that Kourtney was motivated by cruelty to animals. I am sure that this compassion she clearly has in her will see her through her veg journey to its logical vegan conclusion.

Hope she is well. If you call her, please tell her Compash (Natalie )says hi. 8)


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 06, 2005 5:43 pm 
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Elephant
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I don't either Richard. My statement wasn't to Daywalker -- it was a general statement.

Don't get me wrong, I too get angry at people that don't want to listen and think they aren't doing anything wrong. But most of these people have been taught that they need this stuff and actually crave it because of additives put in the food by the manufacturers. Education is needed. But damn right I get angry at those that know what they are doing is wrong and don't care ! :evil: (Hence the need to let off some steam...)

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Out of my mind...Back in five minutes.

No human can call themselves liberal or radical or even a conservative advocate of fair play, if they contribute in any way to the pain and suffering of other beings.

http://www.myspace.com/cjdcrash


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 06, 2005 5:45 pm 
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Elephant
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Gee, guess we were all answering at the same time. :lol:

_________________
Out of my mind...Back in five minutes.

No human can call themselves liberal or radical or even a conservative advocate of fair play, if they contribute in any way to the pain and suffering of other beings.

http://www.myspace.com/cjdcrash


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 06, 2005 5:54 pm 
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Elephant
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Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2005 3:38 pm
Posts: 1869
Location: Vegan Strength Cult, German HQ
Wow, very many new posts while i was still formulating mine :lol:

EDIT: and another 3! :lol:

Okay, one by one ;)

Richard is right 8)

And i don't refer to kids who are vegetarian. I think it's great when kids (mainly girls) decide to go vegetarian! And i also didn't mean people who just got vegetarian.
I was talking about grown up vegetarians the kind Johnathan spoke of.

Meggy, it's totally awesome how early you became vegetarian! I think it's a sign of intelligence and compassion. I wish i would have been so smart and upright earlier!

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 06, 2005 5:56 pm 
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Stegosaurus

Joined: Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm
Posts: 3110
Daywalker wrote:
i have been mocked by vegetarians often enough for being "too extreme" - they are doing enough for the animals and milking doesn't hurt! :evil:





Alex, yes i see why you would feel strong negative feelings for those particular vegetarians if they are mocking you with ignorant statements like "milking doesnt hurt." :?: :!: They obviously dont understand that milk is the flipside of the veal coin. SO if veal is appaulling to you and you dont wish to support it, then you shouldnt consume dairy either, as vegans already know. Veal is a by product of the dairy industry. This aint rocket science, so what's up with these vegetarians mocking you and saying milking doesnt hurt? Are they really that stupid and/or uninformed? :idea:

Now here is a first for me: I met somebody the other day who told me that they think veal is just about the cruellest "food" on the face of the planet and so he doesnt eat veal. BUt he isnt a vegan or vegetarian and eats other animals (obviously he hasnt made the connection yet to other animals). Anyway, what was interesting and what relates to this discussion is that this particular meat head knew that if he supported the dairy industry he was supporting the veal industry. So, in other words, he was a non-veal eating non dairy eating carnivore.
:shock:
never met one of those before, but I must say that at least he made the connection between eating baby cows and drinking milk. Hopefully, it is only a matter of time before he goes vegan. He seemed to be a smart guy with common sense and at least an ounce of compassion.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 06, 2005 6:07 pm 
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Stegosaurus

Joined: Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm
Posts: 3110
Daywalker wrote:
it saddens me more that vegetarians argue against veganism than when meat eaters argue against vegetarism.



yes, I too find that very frustrating and indeed tragic. More tragic than a meat eater arguing against veganism is an ethical vegetarian arguing against veganism.

I dont think there is anything extreme about giving up milk or cheese. Maybe this extreme argument has an ounce of plausibility when thinking about things like sugar or beer or whatever else is not 100 % technically vegan, but making a sincere and honest effort to give up, in addition to meat, eggs and dairy is not extreme and not at all a lot to ask. In my opinion. But still, no matter how inconvenient or seemingly hard it is, iyt something that we must do if we believe that animals have rights not to be exploited for human convenience.

One last thing: Somebody (maybe Alex) said that some vegetarians end up contributing to animal suffering just as much as a meat eater does because they end up essentially replacing the meat they are missing in their diet with eggs and cheese. This was certainly the case with me. When I went veg, I felt all warm and ethically fuzzy inside thinking that I had taken this huge ethical step. But in reality I was no less responisble for animal suffering than a meat eater because I was eating cheese and eggs like they were the only things left to eat on this planet! So what Alex said about this was 100% truth in my own case ( i am NOT speaking for anybody else here - only about me and my experience with vegetarianism. But I have already mentioned this somewhere else. So my cosncience felt great when I was just veg but in reality I was doing very little.



peace


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 06, 2005 6:10 pm 
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Stegosaurus

Joined: Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm
Posts: 3110
Daywalker wrote:


Meggy, it's totally awesome how early you became vegetarian! I think it's a sign of intelligence and compassion. I wish i would have been so smart and upright earlier!


10000% agree!!!!! :!: :!:


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