Vegan Bodybuilding & Fitness

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 24, 2005 4:49 am 
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Rabbit

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This is great stuff...it really is. I'm so glad to be here. Thank you all for your support and thoughtful words.

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Mike Bundrant

"Let the people be holy and every animal and creeping thing will be filled with peace; and the soil of the earth will bring forth in its strength, and the fruits thereof will be meat for man."
--Brigham Young


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 24, 2005 1:26 pm 
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Stegosaurus

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Wow, I really like your quote too.

I find quotes very inspirational. It seems (for me anyway) that somebody else has so eloquently found the words to convey what is in your heart and mind!

:D


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 26, 2005 10:15 pm 
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Greetings, Mike, and welcome to the board :!:

Mike Bundrant wrote:
More specifically on the goal - I want to get my body fat percentage down from the current 23% to around .....say 10%...? I'm not sure about this one. What should it be?

I think there are studies that show an increase in health risks for men with over 15% body fat. I, too, am at about 23%. 15% is my short-term goal. After that I will see how much work it is to keep it there or maybe drop it lower.

Mike Bundrant wrote:
I eat meat every once in a while socially - at a BBQ with friends for example. I haven't committed to just bringing a veggie burger or something...

I know a lot of people here will be mad at me, but I have to say that I think the value of social engagements can far exceed the question of animal rights. By that, I guess I mean that there is a time and a place for everything. I can remember many, many Christmas and Thanksgiving dinners with my family that ended with someone locked in the bathroom crying because someone else couldn't keep their mouth shut and didn't know how to give thanks for the common ground that we all shared. Now it has been 5 years since I have spoken to my dad and a couple of years since speaking with most of my brothers. I don't miss them a bit. But I often spend time with my wife's family. We disagree on most issues, but we still share common ground, and we know how to support one another. These are some of the best days of my life :). I would never embarass these people by bringing up the question of animal rights at a social occasion. The time to discuss such things is when we are alone... when I can express my food preferences in a way that is not threatening, and offer possible solutions or compromises.

--------------------------------------------

Mike, I have heard that it is an LDS doctrine that each family should have a year's supply of food and water. Is this true or is it a myth? Or is it just strongly recommended? Anyway, I was wondering what sort of vegan food could be kept for such a long time and still be healthy? Beans and pasta, I suppose. What else?

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As long as men massacre animals, they will kill each other. Indeed, he who sows the seeds of murder and pain cannot reap the joy of love --- Leonardo Da Vinci


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 26, 2005 10:48 pm 
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Stegosaurus

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sirdle wrote:

Mike Bundrant wrote:
I eat meat every once in a while socially - at a BBQ with friends for example. I haven't committed to just bringing a veggie burger or something...


I know a lot of people here will be mad at me, but I have to say that I think the value of social engagements can far exceed the question of animal rights. By that, I guess I mean that there is a time and a place for everything.


Unless you are in a life or death do or die situation, there is never "a time and place" to kill and eat animals!!! A "social" gathering is weak and pathetic excuse to support what you saw in "Meet your meat". , or the killing of animals. period. I am shocked at any suggestion that it is okay to kill animals as long as you are at a social gathering. You must understand that for people like me (and I am by no means speaking for all vegans here), the idea of murdering innocent animals is what is appalling and offensive - not somebody who speaks the truth. And at any rate, like I said in the meet your meat thread - if it is good enough for somebody's tastebuds, then it should be good enough for their eyes, ears and brains.

Quote:

I can remember many, many Christmas and Thanksgiving dinners with my family that ended with someone locked in the bathroom crying because someone else couldn't keep their mouth shut and didn't know how to give thanks for the common ground that we all shared.


Why should we keep our mouth shut and thereby FURTHER silence already voiceless, tortured animals? The meat industry does a good job of doing that as it is. We have, in my opinion, a moral DUTY to speak up for animals, since they cannot speak for themselves. If we have seen the suffering, if we are aware of the magnitude of it, then we have a responsiblity to disclose it to people who might otherwise be completely uninformed.

Quote:


Now it has been 5 years since I have spoken to my dad and a couple of years since speaking with most of my brothers. I don't miss them a bit. But I often spend time with my wife's family. We disagree on most issues, but we still share common ground, and we know how to support one another. These are some of the best days of my life :). I would never embarass these people by bringing up the question of animal rights at a social occasion.
.


This misses the point. YOu dont need to bring up animal rights, as you put it, at a gathering, but that doesnt mean you also cannot stick to your vegan ethics at these gatherings. "Speaking about animals rights" at a social gathering is obviously not the same thing as passing up meat dishes at a social gathering. YOu can be totally silent on animal rights issues at a social gathering, yet stick to the animal free dishes. In other words, you can skip the meat and never even mention the word animals the entire time you are there. Now if your veg*ism offends the hostess, well, that would just be too pathetic and irrational and unreasonable to even dignify with a response. If anything, family members should show YOU and your ethical choices and lifestyle respect by not "guilt tripping" you into eating meat. You should NEVER feel guilty about being vegan. You are helping starving people, the environement, animals and your health by being vegan. What is meat eating doing for other people, animals or the planet? SQUAT, that is what. And even worse, it is actually harming.

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The time to discuss such things is when we are alone... when I can express my food preferences in a way that is not threatening, and offer possible solutions or compromises.
.


You can discuss your veganism in a non-threatening way ANYWHERE. IN fact, if you pass up on the meat at "family thanksgiving" for example, and instead opt for the more animal friendly dishes, and in response, your family asks you "why you dont eat meat", well then that is fair game. They asked, and so you should tell - the truth. If you want to keep it brief, you can simply say "I am vegan for health, ethical and environmental reasons." If they want more, and then later get offended by your honest response to THEIR questions in the first place, well then again, that is just pathetic, and unreasonable. And, from my experience, people that get offended and all huffy and puffy are the ones that know in their heart that you and your choices are right. If somebody genuinely has no inkiling of the "wrongness" of eating animals, you and your veganism will not OFFEND them, but rather, AMUSE them.

--------------------------------------------


Last edited by compassionategirl on Sat Aug 27, 2005 12:01 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 26, 2005 11:28 pm 
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Elephant

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Quote:
Unless you are in a life or death do or die situation, there is never "a time and place" to kill and eat animals!!! A "social" gathering is weak and pathetic excuse to support what you saw in "Meet your meat". , or the killing of animals. period. I am shocked at any suggestion that it is okay to kill animals as long as you are at a social gathering. You must understand that for people like me (and I am by no means speaking for all vegans here), the idea of murdering innocent animals is what is appalling and offensive - not somebody who speaks the truth. And at any rate, like I said in the meet your meat thread - if it is good enough for somebody's tastebuds, then it should be good enough for their eyes.


Exactly...more reasons as to why I despise mankind. Unless you put yourselves in their shoes and suffer like them, thats really a really mean thing to say.

As for the time to discuss things when alone, does this go the same for Human Rights as well? I take it that buying blood diamonds is ok as well?


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 27, 2005 12:23 am 
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I am locked in the bathroom crying right now... :wink:

-----------------------------------------------------

Seriously, Natalie, I have the greatest respect for your compassion, and your drive, and your values, and your save-the-animals approach to life, and I don't want anything I say to make you think otherwise. You and I often disagree on these pages, but I think the real disagreement is usually one of semantics or degree, not of substance. Five minutes together in a face-to-face discussion would clear up any misunderstanding we may have. :)

Imagine we are at a wedding. You and me and a long-time friend of mine are all sitting at the same table with several other guests. Try to imagine this person. He is intelligent, passionate, and value-driven. He believes that ethics are the most important thing in life. He believes that keeping quiet when faced with an ethical decision is the same as giving-in to the forces of evil and will cause him to be damned to hell. He is also a die-hard, gun-totting, NRA-backing, hunter. One of his greatest thrills is to eat raw liver from a freshly killed buck while the blood dribbles down his cheeks and throat. To him, the hunt, the chase, and the kill are ways that he becomes closer to his god. It is spirituality at its deepest and it is so basic to his personality that he is offended by any blasphemous suggestion that what he is doing is wrong. (---Hang on Nat---I am not defending this person---I am just setting the scene).

Can you imagine the scene? You politely and discretely pass up the main meat dish. He is intrigued and inquires. You respond. He responds. You. Him. You. Him. Before long you are (perhaps) yelling all the things you wrote in you last post and he is (almost certainly) yelling right back with his own littany.

Would it be right to destroy this wedding? Especially when such a guest is clearly not receptive to your ideas?

You see, Nat, I don't have to imagine the shouting and the incriminations and the hurt feelings and the bitterness. I've lived through them. At every social gathering of my childhood. The discussions were not about animal rights, but they could have been. The topics were Christianity vs Atheism, the Vietnam War, civil rights for blacks, abortion for women, labor vs big business, or how the CIA was training insurgents in Afghanistan to resist the Soviet invasion (the leader was a little-known guy named Osama Bin Laden)... each one guaranteed to bust up a social gathering.

compassionategirl wrote:
If they want more, and then later get offended by your honest response to THEIR questions in the first place, well then again, that is just pathetic, and unreasonable.

compassionategirl wrote:
Now if your veg*ism offends the hostess, well, that would just be too pathetic and irrational and unreasonable to even dignify with a response.

When did you meet my family? :lol: :wink:

-----------------------------------------------------

compassionategirl wrote:
You dont need to bring up animal rights, as you put it, at a gathering, but that doesnt mean you also cannot stick to your vegan ethics at these gatherings. "Speaking about animals rights" at a social gathering is obviously not the same thing as passing up meat dishes at a social gathering. You can be totally silent on animal rights issues at a social gathering, yet stick to the animal free dishes. In other words, you can skip the meat and never even mention the word animals the entire time you are there.

I absolutely agree. But remember, that at the time Mike was talking about he had not made an ethical commitment to the cause (if I understand him correctly). BTW, you can stick to the animal-free dishes... if there are any. I have been to gatherings where every dish contained some sort of animal product. This is why I said that there is a time and a place for everything. The time is before the gathering; the place is when you are alone with the hostess. Let her know your preferences. Make sure there will be enough food, or offer to bring your own, or eat well before hand...

I love you, Nat. You are an inspiration to all of us.

_________________
As long as men massacre animals, they will kill each other. Indeed, he who sows the seeds of murder and pain cannot reap the joy of love --- Leonardo Da Vinci


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 27, 2005 1:08 am 
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Stegosaurus

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sirdle wrote:


-----------------------------------------------------

Seriously, Natalie, I have the greatest respect for your compassion, and your drive, and your values, and your save-the-animals approach to life, and I don't want anything I say to make you think otherwise. You and I often disagree on these pages, but I think the real disagreement is usually one of semantics or degree, not of substance. Five minutes together in a face-to-face discussion would clear up any misunderstanding we may have. :)


thanks for the kind words.

Quote:
Imagine we are at a wedding. You and me and a long-time friend of mine are all sitting at the same table with several other guests. Try to imagine this person. He is intelligent, passionate, and value-driven. He believes that ethics are the most important thing in life. He believes that keeping quiet when faced with an ethical decision is the same as giving-in to the forces of evil and will cause him to be damned to hell. He is also a die-hard, gun-totting, NRA-backing, hunter. One of his greatest thrills is to eat raw liver from a freshly killed buck while the blood dribbles down his cheeks and throat. To him, the hunt, the chase, and the kill are ways that he becomes closer to his god. It is spirituality at its deepest and it is so basic to his personality that he is offended by any blasphemous suggestion that what he is doing is wrong. (---Hang on Nat---I am not defending this person---I am just setting the scene).

Okay let us try to think of another situation here. If you were at a gathering where you are with your friend, and your friend has, as one of his greatest thrills, the desire to slap his woman around at social gatherings, would you similarly "give in" so as not to offend this apparently core belief of his, by slapping your own woman around? What if you treat your woman like gold, and he intreprets this as a "blasphemous suggestion that what he is doing is wrong."

In your scenario, I would, as a vegan, pass up the meat. If I was concerned about ruining a wedding, I would pass it up quietly, without making a "animal rights debate" out of it. Honestly, to think that one guest's preference for anaimal free dishes will ruin an entire wedding seems like a bit of an exaggeration to me. Where there is a will (i.e. a will to be vegan), there is always a way.

I believe in doing the right thing, not only when it is convenient, but especially when it is not.

Quote:


Can you imagine the scene? You politely and discretely pass up the main meat dish. He is intrigued and inquires. You respond. He responds. You. Him. You. Him. Before long you are (perhaps) yelling all the things you wrote in you last post and he is (almost certainly) yelling right back with his own littany.


When he is intrigued and asks, you can respond in such a way where your response answers the question but at the same time discourages further discussion, if you are concerned that this will escalate into a shouting match and ruin the wedding. The following responses are off the top of my head "I personally feel healthier on a plant-based diet." "veganism has always intrigued me and I want to see for myself what all the "hype" is about". "There are multiple reasons for my veganism, and I would be more than happy to discuss them with you at another time and place. For now, let's go get another beer!" [or whatever your poison is :wink: ]. "Veganism is the right decision for me." If you see that he is going to go off about it, then your second, and final response to him might be "let us just agree to disagree" or "everybody must do what they feel is right for them."

Note that none of these responses are the way that I would personally handle that situation, especially the last two responses above, because I think that veganism is not just right for me or you, but for everybody else out there that has cruelty free options. BUt if your concern is about ruining a wedding, then these responses are non-confrontational and non-threatening.

Quote:

Would it be right to destroy this wedding? Especially when such a guest is clearly not receptive to your ideas?


See above.

Quote:


You see, Nat, I don't have to imagine the shouting and the incriminations and the hurt feelings and the bitterness. I've lived through them. At every social gathering of my childhood. The discussions were not about animal rights, but they could have been. The topics were Christianity vs Atheism, the Vietnam War, civil rights for blacks, abortion for women, labor vs big business, or how the CIA was training insurgents in Afghanistan to resist the Soviet invasion (the leader was a little-known guy named Osama Bin Laden)... each one guaranteed to bust up a social gathering.


Like I said, you neednt discuss even a word of animal rights - just eat the eat the meet free dishes. You should have to sell out your own principles because of irrational, unreasonable people. Just skip the meat, and if somebody asks why, give them a short and sweet answer, essentially deferring the discussion to another time if that is what you feel is appropriate.

compassionategirl wrote:
If they want more, and then later get offended by your honest response to THEIR questions in the first place, well then again, that is just pathetic, and unreasonable.


compassionategirl wrote:
Now if your veg*ism offends the hostess, well, that would just be too pathetic and irrational and unreasonable to even dignify with a response.

When did you meet my family? :lol: :wink:

-----------------------------------------------------

compassionategirl wrote:
You dont need to bring up animal rights, as you put it, at a gathering, but that doesnt mean you also cannot stick to your vegan ethics at these gatherings. "Speaking about animals rights" at a social gathering is obviously not the same thing as passing up meat dishes at a social gathering. You can be totally silent on animal rights issues at a social gathering, yet stick to the animal free dishes. In other words, you can skip the meat and never even mention the word animals the entire time you are there.


Quote:

I absolutely agree. But remember, that at the time Mike was talking about he had not made an ethical commitment to the cause (if I understand him correctly). BTW, you can stick to the animal-free dishes... if there are any. I have been to gatherings where every dish contained some sort of animal product. This is why I said that there is a time and a place for everything. The time is before the gathering; the place is when you are alone with the hostess. Let her know your preferences. Make sure there will be enough food, or offer to bring your own, or eat well before hand...



Hmm...well, what would a committed vegetarian or vegan do if they showed up at a gathering where every dish had an animal product. Easy..they wouldnt be eating anything at the gathering, but probably chow down as soon as they got home cuz they would be hungry. But to eat dead animals at a social gathering because you have no other options there seems to me to be indicative of a lack of seriousness about being vegan/vegeterian.

Quote:


I love you, Nat. You are an inspiration to all of us.


likewise my friend :wink:

edited to add: I encourage everybody that has even an inkiling that there is something "very good" about veganism to make a genuine and unwaivering commitment to this lifestyle; to take it up in their hearts and minds, not just occasionally or even mostly on their plates.


Last edited by compassionategirl on Sat Aug 27, 2005 1:48 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 27, 2005 1:30 am 
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Stegosaurus

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sirdle wrote:
You and I often disagree on these pages, but I think the real disagreement is usually one of semantics or degree, not of substance. Five minutes together in a face-to-face discussion would clear up any misunderstanding we may have. :)


I agree. By the way, I really like your new avatar, but must admit that I miss your other one. :(


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 27, 2005 1:40 am 
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compassionategirl wrote:
When he is intrigued and asks, you can respond in such a way where your response answers the question but at the same time discourages further discussion, if you are concerned that this will escalate into a shouting match and ruin the wedding. The following responses are off the top of my head "I personally feel healthier on a plant-based diet." "veganism has always intrigued me and I want to see for myself what all the "hype" is about". "There are multiple reasons for my veganism, and I would be more than happy to discuss them with you at another time and place. For now, let's go get another beer!" [or whatever your poison is :wink: ]. "Veganism is the right decision for me." If you see that he is going to go off about it, then your second, and final response to him might be "let us just agree to disagree" or "everybody must do what they feel is right for them."

Note that none of these responses are the way that I would personally handle that situation, especially the last two responses above, because I think that veganism is not just right for me or you, but for everybody else out there that has cruelty free options. But if your concern is about ruining a wedding, then these responses are non-confrontational and non-threatening.

I absolutely agree :)

compassionategirl wrote:
But to eat dead animals at a social gathering because you have no other options there seems to me to be indicative of a lack of seriousness about being vegan/vegeterian.

So true :( .

compassionategirl wrote:
Okay let us try to think of another situation here. If you were at a gathering where you are with your friend, and your friend has, as one of his greatest thrills, the desire to slap his woman around at social gatherings, would you similarly "give in" so as not to offend this apparently core belief of his, by slapping your own woman around? What if you treat your woman like gold, and he intreprets this as a "blasphemous suggestion that what he is doing is wrong."

Hmmm. I think this is a much better example than mine, and I find it rather disturbing. I concede your point :oops: .

--------------------------------------------

Thanks about the avatar. I decided I should change it once a month to break up the monotony.

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As long as men massacre animals, they will kill each other. Indeed, he who sows the seeds of murder and pain cannot reap the joy of love --- Leonardo Da Vinci


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 27, 2005 1:56 am 
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Stegosaurus

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sirdle wrote:

Thanks about the avatar. I decided I should change it once a month to break up the monotony.


There is nothing monotonous about that cute little boy in your old avatar. I am dead serious - I LOVE your kid picture. just for the record.

but your new one is so cute too - it looks like a picture of a curious or shocked ostridge (how the heck do you spell ostrige and is that what the picture is of?).

As shocking as this may be, I am bad at figuring out what picture is of what animal. For example, I thought that Dandylion's avatar was one of a mouse, but apparently, to everybody else, it was SO OBVIOUSLY a lioness. :shock: :oops: :oops: :oops: :oops:


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 27, 2005 2:02 am 
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Stegosaurus

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sirdle wrote:

compassionategirl wrote:
Okay let us try to think of another situation here. If you were at a gathering where you are with your friend, and your friend has, as one of his greatest thrills, the desire to slap his woman around at social gatherings, would you similarly "give in" so as not to offend this apparently core belief of his, by slapping your own woman around? What if you treat your woman like gold, and he intreprets this as a "blasphemous suggestion that what he is doing is wrong."

Hmmm. I think this is a much better example than mine, and I find it rather disturbing. I concede your point :oops: .
.


Thanks for giving my example serious and open minded consideration!

peace :D


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 27, 2005 2:22 am 
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compassionatgirl wrote:
There is nothing monotonous about that cute little boy in your old avatar. I am dead serious - I LOVE your kid picture. just for the record.

Ah shucks :oops:.

The new avatar is a lioness. :lol: :lol:
Well, okay, maybe it is an ostrich.

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As long as men massacre animals, they will kill each other. Indeed, he who sows the seeds of murder and pain cannot reap the joy of love --- Leonardo Da Vinci


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