Vegan Bodybuilding & Fitness

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2005 9:11 pm 
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Elephant

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compassionategirl wrote:
FormicaLinoleum wrote:
So if you were doing cardio for an hour or two, your muscles should pretty safe even at high intensity, as long as you have been eating enough for your glycogen stores to be sufficient.


:shock: Cardio for an hour or TWO??? I think that is insane if your goal is to burn fat while retaining lean muscle.

In my opinion, going above your upper limit for more than a few minutes at a time is counterproductive to the goal of fat burning, because yes, your body will burn muscle, NOT fat. I find that many people think doing cardio for hours at a time -- at an intensity way above their upper limit -- will help them achieve their fat loss goals, but I think it actually hinders that goal -- not helps it.

Now note that I am talking about the goal of burning fat while retaining lean muscle. If your goal is to simply build endurance, then that may be a different matter in terms of what works and what doesnt.

I would love to hear Kollisions opinion on this though since he is the certified personal trainer around here.


Nat, you are totally right. The body will use up the glycogen stores and then move onto muscle if there is no more glycogen to be used. Politically correctly speaking, Cardio would be at higher intensities than Fat Burning, it is two different things.

I think that Liz fixed her comment and it matches yours if I am correct?


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2005 10:44 pm 
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Stegosaurus

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Well, no I think there is still a disagreement between me and Liz.

For example, Liz believes that if you eat enough, and then do cardio, you can go at it at an intensity that exceeds your upper limit for about half an hour straight. The reasoning being that since you ate enough and really stored up lots of glycogen, your body would not burn any muscle for that whole half an hour or whatever. Right Liz? At least I think that is what you are saying.

I, however, disagree. From my own research, it seems that even if you are not on an empty stomach, cardio activity above your UPPER LIMIT for more than a few consecutive minutes will STILL be counterproductive to fat loss, because after about 2 minutes, your body starts burning muscle (even if you ate enough before hand).

That is why, in my opinion, interval training (i.e. alternating between 2 minutes high intensity, and then two minutes low intensity) is the best for LOSING FAT and retaining lean muscle, and that applies whether your have a full stomach or an empty stomach. But for maximum effectiveness, it is best to work out first thing the a.m. on an emty stomach. Again, this is only my opinions based on research and personal experience. Kollision can maybe whether my opinion is actually correct or incorrect??? -- i.e. the science behind.

Kollision is the certified expert around here!


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2005 12:09 am 
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Elephant
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compassionategirl wrote:
Well, no I think there is still a disagreement between me and Liz.

For example, Liz believes that if you eat enough, and then do cardio, you can go at it at an intensity that exceeds your upper limit for about half an hour straight. The reasoning being that since you ate enough and really stored up lots of glycogen, your body would not burn any muscle for that whole half an hour or whatever. Right Liz? At least I think that is what you are saying.

It depends on what you mean by "above your upper limit."

My understanding is that your body will tend to use fat and glycogen for energy during exercise, in varying ratios depending on the intensity and other factors, and that it will break down muscle for energy if those two sources are insufficient because either (a) you have run out of glycogen or (b) you are exercising at such a high intensity that your body cannot metabolise fat and glycogen fast enough. So I do understand that your body will use muscle if you are exercising at a high enough intensity even if your glycogen stores are just fine. It's just that I didn't think that the level of intensity I was referring to (70-80% MHR) was high enough to cause muscle breakdown for energy in the presence of adequate glycogen stores. I thought that happened at higher levels of effort.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2005 12:17 am 
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Stegosaurus

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Based on your last post, I think we are exactly on the same page Liz.

I think one's upper limit is 75%. I think anything above 75% of your max heart rate starts getting dangerous from a muscle burning point of view.

although this is disputed. some people think up to 80% is safe from a fat burning perspective.

So it looks likes our only disagreement on these issues is a technicality as to the correct upper limit percentage.

I for one would be better safe than sorry -- so I will be sticking to 75%. My range is I think 124 (lower limit) - 142 (higher limit) so I keep my numbers in the mid 130s. Of course, when doing interval training, I spike it up way above my upper limit of 142 - I go to about 170 -- but only for a minute, followed by two minutes in the 130s.

editted to make what I am trying to day clearer.


Last edited by compassionategirl on Thu Nov 10, 2005 2:04 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2005 1:52 am 
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Elephant
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I see that my original post wasn't very clear because I referred only to the one case in which muscle breakdown occurs (when glycogen stores are depleted). But yeah, we basically agree.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2005 3:18 am 
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Elephant

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Glad to see that you two are on the same page, at least the concept. Heres the thing.

In regards to cardio, both Carbohydrates and Fat are used, however which one is absorbed more than the other depends on the intensity and the duration. The more intensity you use, like Liz said, the body cannot keep up and therefore uses Carbohydrates. The higher you go, then there is not a sufficient supply of Carbohydrates to use and therefore it goes to the muscle.

To my knowledge, it cannot burn muscle until the carbohydrate supply isn't adequate enough. As far as ranges are concerned, it is 55% to 85% MHR for healthy adults. Obviously if you are deconditioned, you would start closer to the 55% and work your way up.

Of course fat burning also happens while outside of the gym while you are resting. I believe muscle burns about 55 calories of fat while at rest for a 24 hour period, correct me if I am wrong. Also the diet is a huge factor. Just look at Rob and he doesn't do cardio yet is still cut. Hrmm, I think I digressed...Sorry about that one hehe.


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