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But if you are unsure about cardiovascular activity at the fat burning range, like most women are, I suggest you get one. Kollision is a personal trainer so he doesnt need one.

 

You are right Nat If you are unsure of your cardio fat range, you should get one. But if it's on the machine, you could use that too (like I do). But I think what you meant is that it is better to use that then the machine so you do not have to hold it and such (like the heart monitor strap)?

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Hey!

Kollision is back!!

 

Where have you been man? We were starting to worry...

 

My first thought exactly!

 

I like to use a heart rate monitor when i do cardio to make sure my heart rate is in the fat burning zone. I have a pretty basic reebok model I got a few years ago, but at the moment the battery is dead and I am too lazy to get a new one. They can definately be beneficial to see where you are as far as the fat burning/aerobic aspect, and you dont need a really expensive one, there are some very basic Polar models for about $40.

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Yup, polar is what I have.

 

yes, like kollision said, some treadmills and whatnot have them built in, but from my experience the ones in my gym are usually either inaccurate or always broken.

 

Plus, sometimes I do my cardio jogging in my neighbourhood, in which case I would need my own monitor anyway.

 

I have the one with the chest strap and watch. I think if you are a female looking to reduce boy fat while retaining lean muscle, it is a good investment.

 

The formula by the way for figuring out where your fat burning range is simply

 

220 - (your age) = your max heart rate. he multiply that number by 65% and by 75%. Keep your rate between those two numbers while doing cardio, and you will burn fat not muscle.

 

So for me it would be 220 - 30 (i.e. my age) = 190.

 

190 X 65% = 123.5

190 X 75% = 142.5

 

I keep my heart rate between these two numbers (which is my "fat burning range" and I burn fat not hard earned muscle). And I use my heart rate monitor to keep track of my heart rate, making sure it is where it should be.

 

You will find that as you get more cardiovascularly fit, it will take greater intensity to bring your heart rate up to the right numbers, and that is good because it means your heart is getting fitter!!

 

At least that is what I do -- it works for me!!

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Yup, polar is what I have.

 

yes, like kollision said, some treadmills and whatnot have them built in, but from my experience the ones in my gym are usually either inaccurate or always broken.

 

Plus, sometimes I do my cardio jogging in my neighbourhood, in which case I would need my own monitor anyway.

 

I have the one with the chest strap and watch. I think if you are a female looking to reduce boy fat while retaining lean muscle, it is a good investment.

 

The formula by the way for figuring out where your fat burning range is simply

 

220 - (your age) = your max heart rate. he multiply that number by 65% and by 75%. Keep your rate between those two numbers while doing cardio, and you will burn fat not muscle.

 

So for me it would be 220 - 30 (i.e. my age) = 190.

 

190 X 65% = 123.5

190 X 75% = 142.5

 

I keep my heart rate between these two numbers (which is my "fat burning range" and I burn fat not hard earned muscle). And I use my heart rate monitor to keep track of my heart rate, making sure it is where it should be.

 

You will find that as you get more cardiovascularly fit, it will take greater intensity to bring your heart rate up to the right numbers, and that is good because it means your heart is getting fitter!!

 

At least that is what I do -- it works for me!!

 

You amaze me you know that? I remember coming to the forums and seeing you write all this stuff....Dang. You gotta become a PT girl!

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...and you dont need a really expensive one, there are some very basic Polar models for about $40.

 

Thanks, I will look for one. My friend has one that is +$100 - way out of my range! She programs her workouts into it, even her interval workouts. She laughingly tells me you have to be a computer programmer to use it.

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I have a heart rate monitor, but the battery ran out about a year ago and I haven't changed it yet. I really need it though, because my cycling training relies a lot on specific heart rate zones.

 

But a question... if you exercise at a higher intensity than the 'fat burning zone' won't your body use glucose/glycogen as its main fuel? I thought your body would break down muscles only if your glycogen stores were too low. So if you were doing cardio for an hour or two, your muscles should pretty safe even at high intensity, as long as you have been eating enough for your glycogen stores to be sufficient.

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So if you were doing cardio for an hour or two, your muscles should pretty safe even at high intensity, as long as you have been eating enough for your glycogen stores to be sufficient.

 

Cardio for an hour or TWO??? I think that is insane if your goal is to burn fat while retaining lean muscle.

 

In my opinion, going above your upper limit for more than a few minutes at a time is counterproductive to the goal of fat burning, because yes, your body will burn muscle, NOT fat. I find that many people think doing cardio for hours at a time -- at an intensity way above their upper limit -- will help them achieve their fat loss goals, but I think it actually hinders that goal -- not helps it.

 

Now note that I am talking about the goal of burning fat while retaining lean muscle. If your goal is to simply build endurance, then that may be a different matter in terms of what works and what doesnt.

 

I would love to hear Kollisions opinion on this though since he is the certified personal trainer around here.

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Cardio for an hour or TWO??? I think that is insane if your goal is to burn fat while retaining lean muscle.

Yeah, I didn't mean to suggest that and hour or two is necessary or recommended. What I meant is that you could go for a couple hours and be okay as far as glycogen stores... so more reasonable periods of time like half an hour to an hour should not be a major challange to glycogen stores at all.

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In my opinion, going above your upper limit for more than a few minutes at a time is counterproductive to the goal of fat burning, because yes, your body will burn muscle, NOT fat. I find that many people think doing cardio for hours at a time -- at an intensity way above their upper limit -- will help them achieve their fat loss goals, but I think it actually hinders that goal -- not helps it.

I didn't mean to refer to going at really high intensities.

 

I'm used to thinking of the numeric heart rate zones, with 60-70% (zone 2) being a kinda easy, comfortable effort and 70-80% (zone 3) being more intense but sustainable. Zone 4 (80-90%) would be hard and zone 5 (90-100%) would be all out and sustainable for only a minute or two. So I was thinking about zone 2 as the "fat burning zone" and meant that I thought that one could go into zone 3 without worrying about muscle breakdown. Is that correct?

 

But I see now that what you referred to as your fat burning zone is 65-75% of MHR, which kinda overlaps into the area I was thinking of as more intense.

 

I will have to exercise for 2-3 hours a couple of times a week, but yeah, that's specifically for training and not for general fitness or weight loss.

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I have a heart rate monitor, but the battery ran out about a year ago and I haven't changed it yet.

Oh good, i'm not the only one.

Yeah, I'm horrible about stuff like that! I really need to take care of that, though, because I should be monitoring my HR all the time. Well, not like 24 hours a day; I mean during my bike riding each day.

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So if you were doing cardio for an hour or two, your muscles should pretty safe even at high intensity, as long as you have been eating enough for your glycogen stores to be sufficient.

 

Cardio for an hour or TWO??? I think that is insane if your goal is to burn fat while retaining lean muscle.

 

In my opinion, going above your upper limit for more than a few minutes at a time is counterproductive to the goal of fat burning, because yes, your body will burn muscle, NOT fat. I find that many people think doing cardio for hours at a time -- at an intensity way above their upper limit -- will help them achieve their fat loss goals, but I think it actually hinders that goal -- not helps it.

 

Now note that I am talking about the goal of burning fat while retaining lean muscle. If your goal is to simply build endurance, then that may be a different matter in terms of what works and what doesnt.

 

I would love to hear Kollisions opinion on this though since he is the certified personal trainer around here.

 

Nat, you are totally right. The body will use up the glycogen stores and then move onto muscle if there is no more glycogen to be used. Politically correctly speaking, Cardio would be at higher intensities than Fat Burning, it is two different things.

 

I think that Liz fixed her comment and it matches yours if I am correct?

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Well, no I think there is still a disagreement between me and Liz.

 

For example, Liz believes that if you eat enough, and then do cardio, you can go at it at an intensity that exceeds your upper limit for about half an hour straight. The reasoning being that since you ate enough and really stored up lots of glycogen, your body would not burn any muscle for that whole half an hour or whatever. Right Liz? At least I think that is what you are saying.

 

I, however, disagree. From my own research, it seems that even if you are not on an empty stomach, cardio activity above your UPPER LIMIT for more than a few consecutive minutes will STILL be counterproductive to fat loss, because after about 2 minutes, your body starts burning muscle (even if you ate enough before hand).

 

That is why, in my opinion, interval training (i.e. alternating between 2 minutes high intensity, and then two minutes low intensity) is the best for LOSING FAT and retaining lean muscle, and that applies whether your have a full stomach or an empty stomach. But for maximum effectiveness, it is best to work out first thing the a.m. on an emty stomach. Again, this is only my opinions based on research and personal experience. Kollision can maybe whether my opinion is actually correct or incorrect??? -- i.e. the science behind.

 

Kollision is the certified expert around here!

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Well, no I think there is still a disagreement between me and Liz.

 

For example, Liz believes that if you eat enough, and then do cardio, you can go at it at an intensity that exceeds your upper limit for about half an hour straight. The reasoning being that since you ate enough and really stored up lots of glycogen, your body would not burn any muscle for that whole half an hour or whatever. Right Liz? At least I think that is what you are saying.

It depends on what you mean by "above your upper limit."

 

My understanding is that your body will tend to use fat and glycogen for energy during exercise, in varying ratios depending on the intensity and other factors, and that it will break down muscle for energy if those two sources are insufficient because either (a) you have run out of glycogen or (b) you are exercising at such a high intensity that your body cannot metabolise fat and glycogen fast enough. So I do understand that your body will use muscle if you are exercising at a high enough intensity even if your glycogen stores are just fine. It's just that I didn't think that the level of intensity I was referring to (70-80% MHR) was high enough to cause muscle breakdown for energy in the presence of adequate glycogen stores. I thought that happened at higher levels of effort.

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Based on your last post, I think we are exactly on the same page Liz.

 

I think one's upper limit is 75%. I think anything above 75% of your max heart rate starts getting dangerous from a muscle burning point of view.

 

although this is disputed. some people think up to 80% is safe from a fat burning perspective.

 

So it looks likes our only disagreement on these issues is a technicality as to the correct upper limit percentage.

 

I for one would be better safe than sorry -- so I will be sticking to 75%. My range is I think 124 (lower limit) - 142 (higher limit) so I keep my numbers in the mid 130s. Of course, when doing interval training, I spike it up way above my upper limit of 142 - I go to about 170 -- but only for a minute, followed by two minutes in the 130s.

 

editted to make what I am trying to day clearer.

Edited by compassionategirl
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Glad to see that you two are on the same page, at least the concept. Heres the thing.

 

In regards to cardio, both Carbohydrates and Fat are used, however which one is absorbed more than the other depends on the intensity and the duration. The more intensity you use, like Liz said, the body cannot keep up and therefore uses Carbohydrates. The higher you go, then there is not a sufficient supply of Carbohydrates to use and therefore it goes to the muscle.

 

To my knowledge, it cannot burn muscle until the carbohydrate supply isn't adequate enough. As far as ranges are concerned, it is 55% to 85% MHR for healthy adults. Obviously if you are deconditioned, you would start closer to the 55% and work your way up.

 

Of course fat burning also happens while outside of the gym while you are resting. I believe muscle burns about 55 calories of fat while at rest for a 24 hour period, correct me if I am wrong. Also the diet is a huge factor. Just look at Rob and he doesn't do cardio yet is still cut. Hrmm, I think I digressed...Sorry about that one hehe.

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