Vegan Bodybuilding & Fitness

Healthy Food Defines You
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2005 6:26 pm 
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Elephant

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Jay wrote:
I hope everyone is taking B-12 at least.

Kollision?

I take B-12, calcium and flax seed oil.


Every thing for me is food. I don't pay attention to B-12 or any vitamins.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 17, 2005 11:22 am 
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Gorilla

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That's too bad. You appear quite dogmatic about it.

For anyone else reading, all vegans should take B-12 supplements and something with omega 3's (like flax oil). That so many don't bother to educate theirselves on this, is why vegans currently have an average life expectancy that is no better than the average meat eater.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 17, 2005 12:44 pm 
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Elephant
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Hi Jay, When I was a fruitarian I was always told that there was no way I could survive on a diet of fruits because I wasn't going to get certain nutrients, over time I learnt that going raw opens you up to things that you would not of known otherwise, I ended up being a fruitarian for ten years trouble free. I was confronted by many,many people like you that found it in their hearts to impose their opinions on the way I chose to live my life as a strict fruitarian, it scared me at first but as I carried on and saw the results for myself I grew in confidence, although you may see your intentions as being good your only seeing the world through your eye's, just because Kollision choose's to get his nutrients from the food he eats doesn't make his personal choice "a shame" you/we need to see the world through his eye's to see why he's made that choice, we all have our personal thoughts and experiences that guide us to take certain views or paths in life but we should also realise that it is just that "personal" infact I also choose to use whole foods as my source of nutrients and not take supplements the only difference is that I question the whole nutrients thing period from food or otherwise! so to me supplementation is useless! but that's my personal opinion. :wink: This life expectancy thing goes way deeper than vit b12! it's the same for raw vegans they don't live any longer than anybody else either, I personaly think this is because we are all products of cooked food, our parents ate it and their parents ate it and their parents and that's without mentioning any other abuses or world wide pollution/radiation exposure! When it comes to true health there are so many things that can affect your absorbtion of whetever nutrient you think your getting such as storage/handling, soil depletion etc, can you look at an apple and be able tell what or how many vitamins your getting? I don't think any of us can, can you take a vitamin pill and be sure your absorbing it?. Believe me I've learnt that the body is a resilient thing if the body can cope with cooked food and anything else we throw at it all these years! Have you ever heard of Pottenger's cats? check this out http://www.nutritionreallyworks.com/Pot ... -cats.html it's pretty interesting :wink: . Another thing I learnt as a raw vegan is that there are so many lies out there! the only truth is that people need to sell products! That's just personal my opinion. :wink:

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 17, 2005 3:20 pm 
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Elephant
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Can a Natural Diet Require Supplements?
From: http://www.veganhealth.org/b12/natural
by Jack Norris, RD

Some vegans wrote me after reading earlier versions of Vitamin B12: Are You Getting It?, saying that by implying vegans need to take a supplement, I am portraying the vegan diet as unnatural. One person said, "All the vegans I know are healthy and they neither take vitamin B12 supplements nor eat foods fortified with vitamin B12."

It is true that many vegans do not supplement with B12 and remain apparently healthy for many years. These vegans normally have no idea what their homocysteine levels are, nor what chronic diseases such elevated levels might be causing. They also do not know if they are suffering from unnoticeable nerve damage. You are taking a big chance by assuming you have transcended a need for a typical B12 intake.

As people live longer, homocysteine has more years to cause damage to the body. Because of this, the human need for B12 has increased over time. The longer a vegan does not supplement with B12, the lower their active B12 levels will drop, increasing their homocysteine levels.

In Western society today, it is easy to ensure an adequate B12 intake. Vegans who supplement with B12 can have superior B12 status to non-vegetarians who do not supplement. In fact, the Food and Nutrition Board says that all people (not just vegans) over age 50 should "meet their RDA mainly by consuming foods fortified with B12 or a B12-containing supplement."

I would encourage vegan advocates to make achieving superior B12 status for all vegans one of our goals. As such, all new vegans should be told to ensure an adequate supply of B12 by the people or organizations who encourage them to change their diet.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 17, 2005 3:42 pm 
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Elephant
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Great info guys! just throwing this out there! :wink:

http://thelatestmagazine.com/Articles/0 ... ineral.htm
http://www.mercola.com/2002/jan/26/vege ... ths_02.htm
http://www.championtrees.org/yarrow/whereb12.htm

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 17, 2005 4:58 pm 
Jay wrote:
That's too bad. You appear quite dogmatic about it.

For anyone else reading, all vegans should take B-12 supplements and something with omega 3's (like flax oil). That so many don't bother to educate theirselves on this, is why vegans currently have an average life expectancy that is no better than the average meat eater.

b12 is present in meat because of cows eating grass etc and consumin dirt/broken down plant life...


humans store b12 and if you stopped eating any b12 at age 20 you'd prolly have enough to still have a wee bit in reserve in your late 40s

mushrooms and tempeh(soy beans bound with a mushroom culture) will provide you with b12.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 17, 2005 6:50 pm 
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Elephant

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Jay wrote:
That's too bad. You appear quite dogmatic about it.

For anyone else reading, all vegans should take B-12 supplements and something with omega 3's (like flax oil). That so many don't bother to educate theirselves on this, is why vegans currently have an average life expectancy that is no better than the average meat eater.


Pay for my supplement, then we will have a convo :wink: You're making it sound as if we have all that money to spend on supplements.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 17, 2005 7:19 pm 
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Elephant
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kollision wrote:
Jay wrote:
That's too bad. You appear quite dogmatic about it.

For anyone else reading, all vegans should take B-12 supplements and something with omega 3's (like flax oil). That so many don't bother to educate theirselves on this, is why vegans currently have an average life expectancy that is no better than the average meat eater.


Pay for my supplement, then we will have a convo :wink: You're making it sound as if we have all that money to spend on supplements.


Just buy soymilk that comes fortified with B12, it doesn't cost any more than normal soymilk. And you can get bulk flax seeds for really cheap too

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 17, 2005 7:26 pm 
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Elephant

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willpeavy wrote:
kollision wrote:
Jay wrote:
That's too bad. You appear quite dogmatic about it.

For anyone else reading, all vegans should take B-12 supplements and something with omega 3's (like flax oil). That so many don't bother to educate theirselves on this, is why vegans currently have an average life expectancy that is no better than the average meat eater.


Pay for my supplement, then we will have a convo :wink: You're making it sound as if we have all that money to spend on supplements.


Just buy soymilk that comes fortified with B12, it doesn't cost any more than normal soymilk. And you can get bulk flax seeds for really cheap too


I don't buy soymilk, it's pretty expensive down here.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 17, 2005 7:38 pm 
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Stegosaurus
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Even a B-12 supplement is really inexpensive, particularly if you use it sparingly and make it last. I'll use the B-12 spray we sell, for example - there's 175 servings per bottle on the average, and if you were to take it once per week....welll....you get the picture as to how long you can make a $9.95 item last if you wanted to. Over 3 years' supply for less than $10 is pretty reasonable to ensure against potential problems from deficiencies.

I myself don't plan on gambling that my diet encompasses every nutrient combination perfectly. I know that it doesn't because I know how I eat, so why take a chance?

Ryan


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 17, 2005 7:50 pm 
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Elephant

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What I am saying is that money is tight. Even 9 bucks is a lot of money for me. If you are going to send me some for free or buy it for me, then you are in the position to talk. If you don't, you can just speak your mind on how B12 is beneficial, but don't try to come and lecture me on what to take if you aint gonna provide it. (not you veganessential, but I mean in general)

The topic is, "Do you not take supplements", it's a simple question. Not, "Lecture others that they are wrong".


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 17, 2005 8:02 pm 
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Elephant
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kollision wrote:
I don't buy soymilk, it's pretty expensive down here.


It costs $2.19 for a carton of soymilk fortified with B12 at my local supermarket. Have you tried shopping around?

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 17, 2005 8:04 pm 
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Elephant
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I learnt that supplements are a hot subject for people you will always have the for's and againts. When I was fruitarian people always said I had to eat greens or I would die! now I'm in the same boat as Kollision even if I wanted to I couldn't because of money! these things are designed for you to be coming back to buy more at some stage! I really don't believe that they work anyway and the ones that do " the live stuff" are real expensive! :wink:

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 17, 2005 8:42 pm 
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Stegosaurus
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I definitely don't want to come off as lecturing because I neither have a well-balanced diet nor do I have a great supplementation routine, that's for sure.

However, I do think that for the very few things we as vegans should worry about dietary-wise, B-12 shouldn't be neglected for how easy it is to obtain. Getting more than you need isn't going to damage your health, but having a deficiency will be something that you obviously do NOT want to experience (see the B-12 thread for a story regarding that!) We often assume that because we eat "healthy" foods that we could never have a problem, and I'd hate to see people have to suffer because they thought that supplementing something essential for proper function isn't a valid thing to do. As you can see in the other thread, there can be issues with our bodies' absorption potential, and the miniscule amount of some vitamins that we sometimes get might not be enough through everyday eating, particularly if it is like B-12 and not an easy thing to find in your daily vegan meals. I may carry some spare weight on me which isn't necessarily the greatest thing, but I sure don't plan on simple supplementation to prevent potential illness that could steal months of my life!

I know that money is really tight for some people, but we have to ask ourselves, when an item costs something in the range of 5 cents per day for a dose, can we REALLY say that we don't spend far more than that on something we could easily eliminate from our daily habit once or twice to pay for it? Coffee, soft drinks, a Clif bar....we all have our indulgences that we don't consider to be frivolous, but all it takes is denying them once in a while to afford things that really matter. I think proper insurance for our health should come at the top of this, even if it isn't "fun" to think about.

Sorry, getting a bit carried away here. I just think that being vegan and being healthy go hand-in-hand and I'd hate to see anyone pay the price with their health for something really simple and preventable. The choice is ultimately everyone's to decide, but if the time comes that something does in fact happen, you can't undo the damage.

Ryan


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 17, 2005 11:18 pm 
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Elephant
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B12 is a funny vitamin because it's so unaccessable! why is it so unaccessable, there's got to be a reason? what are we doing wrong that we are missing out on getting regular top ups? if we were stuck on a island how would we get this vitamin, would we kill an animal for it, eat dirt? is getting it from fortified foods really that safe? is it so unaccessable because we make it in our intestines like animals do? How do you get so deficient in this that you get ill, is it our diets? Why do we have to manufacture it?I just don't get it!!!

http://www.fruitarian.com/ac/Nutritiona ... Fruits.htm

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