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PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2005 7:57 am 
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Elephant

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[quote=Bronco]Yes, that's why they are called compound exercises Wink. [/quote]

If that is the case, then it makes sense that if you are using other muscles, thereby not focusing on a muscle in particular, then you wouldn't be working that muscle as much as you could via isolation.

Stabilizer muscles would be involved, which would take the load off of the intended muscle.

Quote:
Not sure. Did you mean to say that I would use isolation exercises for the triceps? Or are you saying that if I wanted my triceps to catch up with my biceps I would train the biceps with isolation exercises, thereby making it grow less and allow the triceps to catch up?


Hrmm, I messed up there :? Sorry about that one, dunno what happened there. Well lets change the scenario a bit for the first one since I did mess up. Lets change it to where the triceps are bigger than the bicep. Erase what I first said in regards to the biceps overshadowing the triceps, and replace that with triceps overshadowing the bicep. Sorry again. But since I did start off with Tricep, I'll give another scenario.

You can do Tricep overhead extensions with a dumbbell. Obviously when you are doing it, the shoulder needs to stabilize the arm in place in order to keep your position. If you were to do this on a machine, there would be little stress on the shoulder, thereby limiting the shoulder from actually helping you get up the weight, and using more of your triceps.

Sorry again. As for making it grow less, that would be atrophy and that's not a good thing to lose muscle tissue. If you are in a situation like that, basically you would either:

1) Maintain what you do have on the triceps, by doing the same weight, same exercise and same rep scheme for the triceps until your biceps catch up.

or

2) Work on lean muscle body mass, thereby gaining Type 1 muscle fibers (endurance and aerobic) and losing Type 2 muscle fibers (anaerobic, what we use for resistance training). You can accoplish this by lowering the weight and upping up the rep scheme to 15 and beyond if you like. You wont lose muscle, just that you will be gaining a different type of muscle, and losing another type of muscle in order to gain. Hrmmm that sounded confusing, did you get that?


Quote:
Oh, now we're getting to the point Smile. What is it more then?


Theres definition (losing body fat), and theres definition (sculpting the body parts). You can work out a certain way and just get a mass, but not really have the muscle defined and sculpted. Does that make sense?


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2005 1:09 pm 
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taking into account what you are saying above kol, it is still going to be better to build muscle using free weights than with machines. you can easily achieve the same goals (ie great physique - example alex, as well as many others) but you will do it with stronger, and more stable muscles. you are then going to be less liable to injure yourself, and you will be most probably be stronger.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2005 6:37 pm 
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jonathan wrote:
taking into account what you are saying above kol, it is still going to be better to build muscle using free weights than with machines. you can easily achieve the same goals (ie great physique - example alex, as well as many others) but you will do it with stronger, and more stable muscles. you are then going to be less liable to injure yourself, and you will be most probably be stronger.

jonathan


It's easy to to see. If you are involving other muscles, while you are trying to build a certain muscle, obviously you won't be putting as much as you could on the certain muscle by having the workout already stabilized via machines.

Just look at the idea of "focus" in general. Of course you would do better if you just focused at what was at hand. If you were to add another material into it, then your focus would not be totally on what was there in the beginning. So instead of 100% of your attention, you would probably have anywhere from 90%-50% of your attention on one material, and 50% to 10% on the other. Your mind won't be focused on what it should be because it would have its focus drawn away.

Same goes in accordance with the machines. The machines stabilize the exercise already for you, so you can focus on a certain body part.


Daywalker wrote:
I don't think that machines have benefits over free weights. If you want to do isolation work, you can do that with free weights also. Doing preacher curls in a machine probably won't do your biceps any better than doing them with a bar.
I don't like machines for they dictate the way of movement, feels awkward.


I never said that they have a benefit over it, but it has it's purpose just as free weights do. Free Weights are better to add more mass, but isolation would be better to sculpt that muscle. Like I gave in the example I told Jonathan, the same applies.

Preacher c*rl with a machine is way different from a bar. When you use a bar, you stimulate your legs, your back, and your shoulders, and then your biceps. If it's on the machine, those are cancelled out, therefore leaving more focus on the biceps.

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I can't help but smile when i see someone in the gym do cable cross for chest Rolling Eyes


Well there is more ROM with cables than Dumbbells.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2005 6:56 pm 
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kollision wrote:
It's easy to to see. If you are involving other muscles, while you are trying to build a certain muscle, obviously you won't be putting as much as you could on the certain muscle by having the workout already stabilized via machines.

I know what you mean, but i don't agree.
The key stimulus for growth is the number of microtrauma to the muscle fibres. The higher the weight and the more often you lift it, the higher the growth stimulus.
Now if you do triceps extensions with 35kg in a machine and use only the triceps, the total stress is still less than when you do close grip bench press with 70kg. On the bench, you need many more muscles to help with the movement, but the major worked muscle is the triceps, which has to contract against the weight of 70kg instead of 35.

Quote:
Same goes in accordance with the machines. The machines stabilize the exercise already for you, so you can focus on a certain body part.

Yes, that's why you get a better pump and a burning sensation in the worked muscle.
But that has got nothing to do with growth.


Quote:
I never said that they have a benefit over it, but it has it's purpose just as free weights do. Free Weights are better to add more mass, but isolation would be better to sculpt that muscle.

I don't get your concept of sculpting a muscle.
To me, sculpting means either reducing the BF% to actually see the muscle and/or to increase it's size. I don't believe you can influence the shape of a muscle by certain exercises. You can stretch a muscle, you can work a muscle - that's it.

Quote:
Preacher c*rl with a machine is way different from a bar. When you use a bar, you stimulate your legs, your back, and your shoulders, and then your biceps.

:?:
I wonder how you do preacher curls??? :?


And even IF you stimulate your legs, back and shoulders - so what? These muscles are far stronger than the biceps, which leaves the biceps as the weak part of the chain, the part that will get the most out of the exercise.


Quote:
Quote:
I can't help but smile when i see someone in the gym do cable cross for chest Rolling Eyes


Well there is more ROM with cables than Dumbbells.

The only advantage of the cables would be the different resistance curve, but nobody can get me to believe that you build muscle with cable cross. I do dumbell flies, but only to work the pecs in the stretched position. The mass builders are the pressing movements.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2005 7:16 pm 
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Daywalker wrote:
I know what you mean, but i don't agree.
The key stimulus for growth is the number of microtrauma to the muscle fibres. The higher the weight and the more often you lift it, the higher the growth stimulus.
Now if you do triceps extensions with 35kg in a machine and use only the triceps, the total stress is still less than when you do close grip bench press with 70kg. On the bench, you need many more muscles to help with the movement, but the major worked muscle is the triceps, which has to contract against the weight of 70kg instead of 35.


Microtrauma to that SPECIFIC muscle fibers.

Tricep Extention compared to a close grip bench press is a totally different angle as well as exercise. This is why I was trying to pin up the same exericise compared to using it via free weights or with machine to make more sense. Of course at different exercises you will get a different feeling to it.

Quote:
Yes, that's why you get a better pump and a burning sensation in the worked muscle.
But that has got nothing to do with growth.


Better pump = more blood flow right?

Which = vasodilation?

If this is the case, right there it proves enough that it is good, just based on that. If you have more blood flow, then you have more nutrients going in of the tissues and more waste products coming out.

Thats the basis of Nitric Oxide.

Quote:
I don't get your concept of sculpting a muscle.
To me, sculpting means either reducing the BF% to actually see the muscle and/or to increase it's size. I don't believe you can influence the shape of a muscle by certain exercises. You can stretch a muscle, you can work a muscle - that's it.


For example biceps. You have the long head and the short head. If you do this with free weights, more than likely you will be using both, even though you are just trying to focus on one because, just like the stabilization below, it will end up picking up whatever slack is left, even if you don't recognize it when you are working out. The same applies to the triceps as it has three heads, and you can work out each one individually. You can also control how much bigger you want, say the lateral head triceps compared to the long head of the triceps. Yes you can isolate this with free weights, but like I said, it wont be focused fully on that as it could be on machines.

Quote:
Question
I wonder how you do preacher curls??? Confused


And even IF you stimulate your legs, back and shoulders - so what? These muscles are far stronger than the biceps, which leaves the biceps as the weak part of the chain, the part that will get the most out of the exercise.


I had the impression that you were talking about standing curls since you said the bar? That is why I said you stimulate the legs, back, etc. because I had the idea that you meant standing curls. Sorry about that.

But to still answer your question, the shoulders are still used when curling. It holds the arm in place and therefore would lend a bit while doing the curl. If you are using a machine, it takes out that factore, therefore leaving more for the biceps to do. You wont ever need to rely on other muscles to help you lift the weight. And if these muscles are stronger than the biceps, most of the time these end up taking up the slack when you try and do heavier weights, which leads to bad posture and possibly injury.

Quote:
The only advantage of the cables would be the different resistance curve, but nobody can get me to believe that you build muscle with cable cross. I do dumbell flies, but only to work the pecs in the stretched position. The mass builders are the pressing movements.


Build muscle? You build muscle as you put on more resistance that your body is not used to. I know you know this principle but let me just explain it. If you are doing cable curls at 45 lbs. In a month you are able to do 65 lbs. Either you are lifting this weight via Neurological patterns or with new muscle that has been built over to handle this weight. Muscle has been built in order to accomadate the weight. It's a known principle and that is the reason why people increase the weight to meat the demands and the biological response.

As far as the mass builders being the pressing movements, thats not entirely correct. The pectorals major has several movements that it can do. The clavicular pectorals can do; Internal Rotation, Horizontal adduction, flexion abduction, and adduction of glenohumeral joint. The sternal pectorals can do; internal rotation, horizontal adduction, extension, and adduction of glenohumeral joint.

Doing cables builds mass also, it's not just press. It's all a matter of the resistance, how you workout, as well as how you schedule your workouts so you don't plateau


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2005 7:53 pm 
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Thanks for the reply! :D
Good discussion here .)

Now, i should go to bed, so just thsi last reply for today... :roll:

kollision wrote:
Microtrauma to that SPECIFIC muscle fibers.

Tricep Extention compared to a close grip bench press is a totally different angle as well as exercise. This is why I was trying to pin up the same exericise compared to using it via free weights or with machine to make more sense. Of course at different exercises you will get a different feeling to it.

Right, i agree.
BUT why do triceps extensions anyway? I'll come back to that, see below.


Quote:
Better pump = more blood flow right?

Which = vasodilation?

If this is the case, right there it proves enough that it is good, just based on that. If you have more blood flow, then you have more nutrients going in of the tissues and more waste products coming out.

Thats the basis of Nitric Oxide.

Right. But blood flow only gets you so far. It HELPS with growth, with nutritients and waste as you said, but it alone doesn't STIMULATE growth. I have nothing against pump, but bodybuilders only aiming for it miss the important part.

Your leg muscles for example get a high blood flow from running ;) (not pump)


Quote:
But to still answer your question, the shoulders are still used when curling. It holds the arm in place and therefore would lend a bit while doing the curl. If you are using a machine, it takes out that factore, therefore leaving more for the biceps to do. You wont ever need to rely on other muscles to help you lift the weight. And if these muscles are stronger than the biceps, most of the time these end up taking up the slack when you try and do heavier weights, which leads to bad posture and possibly injury.

Of course, i'm talking about proper and strict form.

But that's exactly the PROBLEM with the machines - they isolate muscles. This is seldom a benefit. You won't be able to transfer that gained strength to "real life", use it for lifting or other athletic activities. You'd be lacking the synergistic muscle strength and stabilizers.


Quote:
Build muscle? You build muscle as you put on more resistance that your body is not used to.
(...)
It's a known principle and that is the reason why people increase the weight to meat the demands and the biological response.
(...)
It's all a matter of the resistance, how you workout, as well as how you schedule your workouts so you don't plateau

Right, those are true. Now.

How does a program for good muscle gains look? And how do you possibly incorporate cable cross for pecs into that?
And exercises for both heads of the biceps? And all three of the triceps? The inner and outer calves? The 4 heads of the quads, the two hamstrings...

You can put muscle on your pecs with cable cross - if you're a beginner.
When you already do pressing movements, cable work is just waste of time and other resources. A workout should be short and intense. A few movements that work all major muscle groups.

With only 3-4 exercises (-> heavy squats (that work the glutes, hamstrings, lower back, quads among MANY other stabilizing muscles), dips (pecs, shoulders, triceps mainly), chin ups or rowing (lats, middle back, serratus, biceps) and deadlifts (core strength, lower back, traps, forearms, plus the squat muscles) ) you can work the whole body effective and heavy. You'll make great strength and mass gains.
When you add flies for pecs, curls for biceps, triceps extensions, lateral raises, leg extensions, leg curls, lat machine, shrugs, pullovers, and whatever machine to work every muscle again, you'll have worked every muscle twice, once in a compound exercise and once isolated, but you'll have more than twice the number of exercises. This would prolong your workouot AND regeneration time and bring no benefit for the muscle at the same time. (Split training was invented :D )

Sometimes isolation work makes sense, for example if you want to target specific disbalances.
But you can find an isolation exercise for everything with free weights, and i believe it will always be at least as good as the machine - because weights are fitting for everyone, machine seldom are. You have to adjust them, and they are never perfect.


Quote:
The pectorals major has several movements that it can do. The clavicular pectorals can do; Internal Rotation, Horizontal adduction, flexion abduction, and adduction of glenohumeral joint. The sternal pectorals can do; internal rotation, horizontal adduction, extension, and adduction of glenohumeral joint.

*yawn* Please, Koll, i know all that... that is aside of the point. You don't need to work every muscle in every possible way and angle - that's impossible!
It's what secures trainers their jobs, though ;) Everyone wants to write a book about training, everyone invents new exercises "to shake things up" :D
Specific exercises are only necessary to treat injuries and imbalances.

Good night :D

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2005 7:59 pm 
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Daywalker wrote:
I don't use any machines, except for calves.


Same with me. Doing one leg calf raises never gives me the same burn as the calf extension machine. I also like the twist machine (for obliques). Asides from those two machines, for all the other muscle groups I like using my bodyweight (pullups, dips, one leg squats, etc) or dumbbells (flyes, lunges, situps).

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2005 8:12 pm 
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Daywalker wrote:
Right. But blood flow only gets you so far. It HELPS with growth, with nutritients and waste as you said, but it alone doesn't STIMULATE growth. I have nothing against pump, but bodybuilders only aiming for it miss the important part.

Your leg muscles for example get a high blood flow from running Wink (not pump)


What I was saying is that if you have vasodilation, via the pump, that is one step to growing muscle. And you are saying that that has nothing to do with growth? If you don't take the waste out of the tissues, its obvious whats going to happen. And what if you don't get enough nutrients? Blood flow is important in growing muscle.

Daywalker wrote:
Of course, i'm talking about proper and strict form.

But that's exactly the PROBLEM with the machines - they isolate muscles. This is seldom a benefit. You won't be able to transfer that gained strength to "real life", use it for lifting or other athletic activities. You'd be lacking the synergistic muscle strength and stabilizers.


That is why I said:

Quote:
At the same time, generally when you start out, you start from machines, and then go to free weights. That is typical of someone starting out. However like I mentioned, you would also go back to machines for that.


I am not saying to do it all the time, only for specific cycles. If I said that you would have to do this all the time, then I would be going against the principle that states to create variations in your routine.

And if you are focusing on a specific body part, why would you ever want to include another body part in it? For example, if you are trying to make your biceps standout more because it is being overshadowed by the delts, why would you want to work out the deltoids more than you have to?

Remember, I am talking cycles here.

Daywalker wrote:
How does a program for good muscle gains look? And how do you possibly incorporate cable cross for pecs into that?
And exercises for both heads of the biceps? And all three of the triceps? The inner and outer calves? The 4 heads of the quads, the two hamstrings...


You stated that you can't grow muscle with Cables, and that is why I responded because you can.

Daywalker wrote:
A workout should be short and intense. A few movements that work all major muscle groups.


I agree with that. Sure compount exercises are good, and I am not disputing that. But if you just do that all the time, you will end up getting plateaued. You need to cycle things according to your goals. If you want to focus on biceps, why would you even continue to use this type of cycle? You have to change it to match what you are trying to gain.

Daywalker wrote:
With only 3-4 exercises (-> heavy squats (that work the glutes, hamstrings, lower back, quads among MANY other stabilizing muscles), dips (pecs, shoulders, triceps mainly), chin ups or rowing (lats, middle back, serratus, biceps) and deadlifts (core strength, lower back, traps, forearms, plus the squat muscles) ) you can work the whole body effective and heavy. You'll make great strength and mass gains.
When you add flies for pecs, curls for biceps, triceps extensions, lateral raises, leg extensions, leg curls, lat machine, shrugs, pullovers, and whatever machine to work every muscle again, you'll have worked every muscle twice, once in a compound exercise and once isolated, but you'll have more than twice the number of exercises. This would prolong your workouot AND regeneration time and bring no benefit for the muscle at the same time. (Split training was invented Very Happy )


I don't think you understand what I am saying. If you are focusing on the biceps, you would work out the biceps in that fashion. Not necessarily all the body parts. Split Training is good though. People grow diifferently and different training methods work for different people.

Daywalker wrote:
Sometimes isolation work makes sense, for example if you want to target specific disbalances.
But you can find an isolation exercise for everything with free weights, and i believe it will always be at least as good as the machine - because weights are fitting for everyone, machine seldom are. You have to adjust them, and they are never perfect.


It still doesn't make sense. If you are focusing on biceps, why would you want to include other muscles if those could be the ones overshadowing what you are trying to work out?

Daywalker wrote:
*yawn* Please, Koll, i know all that... that is aside of the point. You don't need to work every muscle in every possible way and angle - that's impossible!
It's what secures trainers their jobs, though Wink Everyone wants to write a book about training, everyone invents new exercises "to shake things up" Very Happy
Specific exercises are only necessary to treat injuries and imbalances.


My point in stating that was because you said you can't build muscle by doing cables.

So are you bad mouthing me now? I have been paying attention to the rolling eyes as well as your last statement?

BTW, I am getting a bit apprehensive of posting on this topic. If I am going to be mocked however slightly then I don't wanna talk. I don't take kindly to that. So I hope I understand what your points were.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 17, 2005 12:37 am 
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at my old gym in PA I mastered all the machines there. I was a strong dude. I was incline benching about 350 on the machines, curling 200lbs, legpresses 800lbs or whatever it went up to. donkey calf raise on 450lbs,
you name it I did it.
now I am struggling to maintain my strength since I have a fractured ankle. but my uppe body is getting strong again.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 17, 2005 12:39 am 
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kollision wrote:
Theres definition (losing body fat), and theres definition (sculpting the body parts). You can work out a certain way and just get a mass, but not really have the muscle defined and sculpted. Does that make sense?

Sure, we all know it possible to be big without being defined. But I'm not really sure what you mean by the muscle being sculpted?


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 17, 2005 1:25 am 
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Here is what I am trying to say:

http://www.answers.com/topic/weight-training

Quote:
Although weight training is similar to bodybuilding, they have quite different goals. Bodybuilders compete in bodybuilding competitions, so they train to maximize their muscular size and develop extremely low levels of body fat. In contrast, most weight trainers train to improve their strength and endurance while not giving special attention to reducing body fat below normal. Weight trainers tend to focus on compound exercises to build basic strength, whereas bodybuilders often use isolation exercises to visually separate their muscles, and to improve muscular symmetry. Pre-contest training for bodybuilders is different again, in that they attempt to retain as much muscular tissue as possible while undergoing severe dieting.

However, the bodybuilding community has been the source of many of weight training's principles, techniques, vocabulary, and customs. One worrisome trend has been the spread of anabolic steroid use into neighbourhood gyms.



With Isolation, you can target certain areas of the muscle, such as the short head Biceps compared to the long head, and other things.

Also, http://www.abcbodybuilding.com/shockyou ... epart1.php

Quote:
Basic Rules of the Superset

Supersets are basically broken down into two types of exercises. Mass and isolation exercises.

First let me explain what I mean by mass and isolation.

A compound movement is a exercise that involves two or more joint movements. These tend to build the most mass.

Isolated exercise involves one discernible joint movement and are used to target a muscle.

A general Weight Training Exercise Classification is as follows:

Mechanics-

Compound. Basic-Many/Auxiliary-Some
Isolation. Basic-some/Auxiliary-many

We can also describe them as closed chain or open chain movements.

A closed chain is an exercise in which the end segment of the exercised limb is fixed, or the end is supporting the weight. Most compound exercises tend to be closed chain movements.

An open chain exercise is one in which the end segment of the exercised limb is not fixed, or the end is not supporting the weight. Most isolated exercise are open chain movements.

"Mass exercises" and "isolation exercises" however are relative terms.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 17, 2005 4:40 am 
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Since I can't seem to post the long-winded reply I have regarding isolation work, I'm simply going to link to a Word document that has what I've written. Nothing like writing for 30 minutes and not being able to post it!

http://www.veganessentials.com/images/Isolation.doc

If it asks for a username and password, click cancel and you should still be able to view the document (hopefully!)

Ryan


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 17, 2005 4:48 am 
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VeganEssentials wrote:
Since I can't seem to post the long-winded reply I have regarding isolation work, I'm simply going to link to a Word document that has what I've written. Nothing like writing for 30 minutes and not being able to post it!

http://www.veganessentials.com/images/Isolation.doc

If it asks for a username and password, click cancel and you should still be able to view the document (hopefully!)

Ryan


I believe the reason you coulding post it is because you had the word "c u r l" in it, but take away the spaces. Theres some sort of bug in this forum that doenst let you post the word, so put "c*rl", thats what I do. I remember I had that problem and it was frustrating.

While you do make a good point, and you are right, that is not the scenario I was painting out. I am talking about doing this in cycles. Of course you should start off and build the base with compounds, but I mean to cycle isolation with machines when you want to specialize a certain muscle part.

And yes it would be benficial to the biceps. The biceps are two different muscles, and therefore if you were to focus on the short head and not the long head, the short head would grow and not the long head. It is beneficial because it is two different muscles, just the same group.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 17, 2005 5:04 am 
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Hi Koll, good morning :D

Let me answer to your last statement first:

kollision wrote:
So are you bad mouthing me now? I have been paying attention to the rolling eyes as well as your last statement?

BTW, I am getting a bit apprehensive of posting on this topic. If I am going to be mocked however slightly then I don't wanna talk. I don't take kindly to that. So I hope I understand what your points were.

Sorry that you got me wrong :(
I was never mocking you. I appreciate your opinion and enjoy this conversation. You say some very clever things sometimes and mostly we even have the same opinion, only not here.
When you stated all the possible movements of the pecs, I felt a little mocked.


kollision wrote:
What I was saying is that if you have vasodilation, via the pump, that is one step to growing muscle. And you are saying that that has nothing to do with growth? If you don't take the waste out of the tissues, its obvious whats going to happen. And what if you don't get enough nutrients? Blood flow is important in growing muscle.

Yes, it is. But it is no stimulus. AND you get increased blood flow in every worked muscle, wether you feel the pump or not. And the blood flow is a reason for stretching after weights, which i always do and advise to do.

By the way, even when you're a pump junkie, you can get awesome pump with free weights :D


Quote:
And if you are focusing on a specific body part, why would you ever want to include another body part in it? For example, if you are trying to make your biceps standout more because it is being overshadowed by the delts, why would you want to work out the deltoids more than you have to?

Do you really believe that the deltoids would be worked too much in this scenario by doing barbell curls? That you wouldn't be able to make your biceps catch up because the deltoids benefit as much from curls?


Quote:
You stated that you can't grow muscle with Cables, and that is why I responded because you can.

Okay.
I meant BIG muscles. You can get muscles to grow with cables, to a certain extend, as a beginner.


Quote:
I agree with that. Sure compount exercises are good, and I am not disputing that. But if you just do that all the time, you will end up getting plateaued. You need to cycle things according to your goals.

You don't need to cycle away from free weights. Cycle the volume, the frequency, the rep range, the intensity, the exercises, everything - no need and no reason for doing machines.


Quote:
If you want to focus on biceps, why would you even continue to use this type of cycle? You have to change it to match what you are trying to gain.

I think you can focus on biceps very well with dumbells or barbells. A machine can't replace your focus and concentration. In fact, i feel that with a dumbell the concentration is better than with a machine.
What you say about machines is very theoretic. I haven't found a machine that lets me isolate my biceps as well as dumbell do. The prescribed movement prevents it, instead of focusing on your biceps you have to follow a probably suboptimal way of movement. Machines are not perfectly copying the natural movement while taking away the need to stabilize (that sounds like from an advertising for gym machines :P ).


Quote:
I don't think you understand what I am saying. If you are focusing on the biceps, you would work out the biceps in that fashion. Not necessarily all the body parts.

Okay, sorry, i did get that wrong. I'd still prefer free weights as isolation exercises, though ;)


Quote:
Split Training is good though. People grow diifferently and different training methods work for different people.

Yes, that's true! :) Agreed :D


Quote:
It still doesn't make sense. If you are focusing on biceps, why would you want to include other muscles if those could be the ones overshadowing what you are trying to work out?

As i said above: i don't think the back, or delts, or legs would get more workout than the biceps by any biceps isolation exercise with free weights. Say standing barbell curls - you need to stand up straight and fix the upper arms while curling, so you need stabilizers. But the main focus is still on biceps. You won't give up on your last rep because the delts are grilled - the biceps are.


kollision wrote:
Weight trainers tend to focus on compound exercises to build basic strength, whereas bodybuilders often use isolation exercises to visually separate their muscles, and to improve muscular symmetry.

That is a common misconception.
I was talking about natural bodybuilding. For roid users apply different rules. They can grow with cable isolation work. Actually, i guess the reason why many hormone freaks do a lot of isolation exercises is not that they want to improve their symmetry, but that these exercises are done with lower weights and put them at a lower risk of tearing a muscle or tendon. Successful bodybuilders always rely on free weights.
This statement you quoted implies that bodybuilders are not as strong as they look and that machines/isolation is better for shaping your physique, i disagree with both (in natural BB).

Another point comes to me.

The weights you use on a machine are higher than with free weights, right? For example, incline bench, machine vs. free barbell. Topher just wrote that he did 350lbs on that machine. Now Topher sure is a muscular guy, but i guess he can't do the same weight on the barbell. This would be a LOT for free weights! Now if the machines put the focus on the worked muscle, and you use more weight, why don't you get much bigger from them? You should be bigger doing 350lbs in the machine than doing them free weight - you're focusing on pecs etc.!
And doing 350 free you'd already be a HUGE guy!


love and peace :)
Daywalker 8)

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 17, 2005 5:31 am 
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Elephant

Joined: Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm
Posts: 1448
Morning Daywalker.

Daywalker wrote:
Sorry that you got me wrong Sad
I was never mocking you. I appreciate your opinion and enjoy this conversation. You say some very clever things sometimes and mostly we even have the same opinion, only not here.
When you stated all the possible movements of the pecs, I felt a little mocked.


Sorry, I didn't mean to do so. I totally forgot that you were a doctor, and I didn't remember that. So sorry if I sounded as if I was trying to "school" you or act as if you were uneducated. Sorry for coming off that way.

I appreciate your inputs as well, I was just getting mixed signals and I wasn't sure so I thought I'd ask before saying that you did. Thanks for the clear up and sorry again :D

Quote:
Yes, it is. But it is no stimulus. AND you get increased blood flow in every worked muscle, wether you feel the pump or not. And the blood flow is a reason for stretching after weights, which i always do and advise to do.

By the way, even when you're a pump junkie, you can get awesome pump with free weights Very Happy


I agree with that. I was just stating that the blood is a big facor in regards to growing muscles. Without stimulus, nothing would happen. But the same goes in regards to the blood.

Im not trying to say that the blood is more important than the stimulus, but that you need both to achieve great results. Like I also mentioned in regards to the nitric oxide, that's what it does and people have had great results with the supplement version. I have a friend that went on it and it worked great.

Quote:
Do you really believe that the deltoids would be worked too much in this scenario by doing barbell curls? That you wouldn't be able to make your biceps catch up because the deltoids benefit as much from curls?


Not only the deltoids, but also the traps. A lot of muscles contract to add to the stabilization, and that alone would waste energy. Contraction of any particular muscle already starts to take out of the ATP stores.

I don't personally think that in general it would make a lot of difference in growing the deltoids alone, but my idea is that if you are focusing on the biceps alone, wouldn't you want to cancel out any other muscles that you are not focusing on to improve? This would leave you more energy to workout the biceps since you will not be contracting other muscles to stabilize the body, as well as avoid injury if you plan on going heavy. I'll address the rest in regards to what you said about Topher :wink:

Quote:
Okay.
I meant BIG muscles. You can get muscles to grow with cables, to a certain extend, as a beginner.


Sorry about that. I hadthe impression that you were saying you would make no gains. But how could you not grow bigger muscles if you keep on meeting the demands of more and more weight? The principle that you need to increase weight in order to build stronger and bigger muscles alone should be enough to accept that cables could big bigger muscles, even for non beginners. Shouldn't it? If not, why is your opinion as to why it wouldn't?

Quote:
You don't need to cycle away from free weights. Cycle the volume, the frequency, the rep range, the intensity, the exercises, everything - no need and no reason for doing machines.


I shouldve been more clear on that, I think I mixed things up there. Yes you can stay on free weights and still gain. What I meant was that for whatever you are planning, there are different avenues to take, therefore there are cycles. If you are trying to isolate a muscle the best you can, then you would go to machines so that you focus only on that muscle alone.

Quote:
I think you can focus on biceps very well with dumbells or barbells. A machine can't replace your focus and concentration. In fact, i feel that with a dumbell the concentration is better than with a machine.
What you say about machines is very theoretic. I haven't found a machine that lets me isolate my biceps as well as dumbell do. The prescribed movement prevents it, instead of focusing on your biceps you have to follow a probably suboptimal way of movement. Machines are not perfectly copying the natural movement while taking away the need to stabilize (that sounds like from an advertising for gym machines Razz ).


I think your point made here is really good in terms of proving your idea. However I still disagree. The reason is that while it prevents other movement, if you were to do say a preacher curls, you are could fidget any which way because you have to stabilize your arm. If you do this on a machine, it is already controlled for you and therefore you wont need to involve other muscles in order to keep it in order.

Like you also said, that is why you can do free weight exercises with proper and strict form. My defense against that would be if you are doing it with proper and strict form, then you would be doing less weight in order to appease the stregnth of your stabilizer muscles.

Quote:
Okay, sorry, i did get that wrong. I'd still prefer free weights as isolation exercises, though Wink


Okay, cool!

Quote:
As i said above: i don't think the back, or delts, or legs would get more workout than the biceps by any biceps isolation exercise with free weights. Say standing barbell curls - you need to stand up straight and fix the upper arms while curling, so you need stabilizers. But the main focus is still on biceps. You won't give up on your last rep because the delts are grilled - the biceps are.


I mentioned the reasons I believe above :D

Quote:
That is a common misconception.
I was talking about natural bodybuilding. For roid users apply different rules. They can grow with cable isolation work. Actually, i guess the reason why many hormone freaks do a lot of isolation exercises is not that they want to improve their symmetry, but that these exercises are done with lower weights and put them at a lower risk of tearing a muscle or tendon. Successful bodybuilders always rely on free weights.
This statement you quoted implies that bodybuilders are not as strong as they look and that machines/isolation is better for shaping your physique, i disagree with both (in natural BB).

Another point comes to me.



I take it that the reason why you say that it works for roid users is because the roids already build the muscles, even with little working out? I have noticed that a lot of BBers do use light weight, and that is mainly when they just do them really fast and even without proper technique.

Also they are pros. Why would their risk of getting a sprain or strain be any more important than natural BBers? If anything, Naturals should be more affraid since there lifts are probably not even close to the roids users. Also, they have the roids working for them at an anabolic level, so why would they be more concerned with tear than say a natural who doesn't use it. Also if they are on roids, we know that they use other supplements besides that.

Quote:
The weights you use on a machine are higher than with free weights, right? For example, incline bench, machine vs. free barbell. Topher just wrote that he did 350lbs on that machine. Now Topher sure is a muscular guy, but i guess he can't do the same weight on the barbell. This would be a LOT for free weights! Now if the machines put the focus on the worked muscle, and you use more weight, why don't you get much bigger from them? You should be bigger doing 350lbs in the machine than doing them free weight - you're focusing on pecs etc.!
And doing 350 free you'd already be a HUGE guy!


Good point, I think thats your best statement since this entire debate! :D

Veganessentials and I already discussed the limiting factors in regards to machine. The cables, the angle, etc. that affects the actual resistance that is being applied.

I also had a friend that could do the 300s on the chest press, but for bench he was stuck at around 250. My idea for this would be, as stated the limiting factors, as well as the stabilization muscles and gravity together. When you are doing machines, the gravity isn't as strong as with free weights. Also when you do inclines, the handles are already there for you to grab, you don't have to pick it up first, and then go down.

We discussed that the weight issue with machines is a bit of a discrepency, I don't disagree with that.

Take care and sorry again for the confusion :wink:


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