Increasing lean muscle with BW only

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the monkey
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Re: Increasing lean muscle with BW only

#16 Postby the monkey » Sat Jun 21, 2008 9:08 pm

That actually sounds like a grat idea I'myourman, specially for dinner where i tend to not know what to eat and just eat a lot and plus i love making myself a papaya smoothie with just frozen papaya and water. :) Also i can try other fruits, and about the sweetener is just for my oatmeal but i got some agave nectar which i actually liked a lot. As i don't plan to bake that much , i will just do as you said which sounds much better, i got two questions though (sorry for being a pain) can i just mix any fruit in my smoothie/juice and the other one, where do i find your blog or lean and green's?? :oops:

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Re: Increasing lean muscle with BW only

#17 Postby the monkey » Sun Jun 22, 2008 9:12 pm

I found it, those are some very impressive results of the juice fasting. I'm your man i am gfonna ask you the same question i asked Lean and Green, can i put any kind of fruits veggies on the shakes i make? Can i also add some oatmeal or other grain/protein powder to my shakes or can i use soy milk other fruit juices as the base? What i plan to do is replace at least one meal a day with a shake, especially dinner and breakfast some days or lunch, would that work or does it have to be no food at all because that would be a problem due to my parents.

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Re: Increasing lean muscle with BW only

#18 Postby I'm Your Man » Mon Jun 23, 2008 12:34 am

You can do what you want Monkey, do strictly only juices, or replace only one meal/day by a juice or smoothie, but in that case it wouldn't be a juice fast at all. The term "fasting" is for a very simple diet, such as only water, or only fruits, or only liquids, etc...
Yes you can use soymilks and oatmeal in your smoothies but the ideal is to use only raw, unprocessed wholefoods such as fruits and veggies to make your juices instead of juices sold in stores, water instead of soymilk from the grocery or make your own soy milk with whole soy beans, raw protein powder (such as hemp or spirulina) instead of protein isolates such as soy protein isolate... All those details will make that it's alkaline, not acidic, so so it will clean, not intoxicate. Because "fasting" is usually also for "cleansing".

Yu can find Lean&Green juicefast blog there : viewtopic.php?f=24&t=13520
And mine: viewtopic.php?f=24&t=10701&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&start=30

Hope you can find inspiration on our blogs.
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Re: Increasing lean muscle with BW only

#19 Postby vegetus25 » Thu Jun 26, 2008 11:07 am

veganmaster,

What gains in muscle and strength have you had since following this pattern of eating and working out?

Veg

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Re: Increasing lean muscle with BW only

#20 Postby cubby2112 » Thu Jun 26, 2008 12:47 pm

Veganmaster, your posts are intriguing. I have been researching diets lately similar to the one you have been talking about. I am one of those people who has a limitless appetite, so I am perfect for doing that diet on exclusively whole foods.

What do you think of a diet which consists of mainly vegetables, fruit, legumes and grains with a little bit of flaxseed thrown in? Is there a strong enough reason to focus on the higher carbohydrate and lower protein foods in those groups to assist in the gain of LBM? Or would I be fine so long as I select from those groups but keep my fat fairly low? It seems from the studies you have shown and what you have been saying the the CHO (I had never seen it abbreviated like this and was confused for a few seconds) to FAT ratio is the most important thing and the protein can be anywhere up to roughly 20% of calories (currently, it is 15-20% of mine) and still have roughly the same effect as if the PRO is 5% or so.

Feel free to post any other studies you find important that are along these lines or send them to me, I love reading studies.
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Re: Increasing lean muscle with BW only

#21 Postby cubby2112 » Thu Jun 26, 2008 2:14 pm

I found this study on AJCN. That site is much better than other study sites I have tried.
http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/abstrac ... type=HWCIT

So according to this study, higher fiber diets allow more unbound testosterone to flow in the body while simultaneously reducing the amount of testosterone excreted while high fat diets do pretty much the same thing for types of estrogen. Is this correct to assume? This contradicts most of what I have read about fiber decreasing testosterone and fat increasing it, but makes sense when you consider that men on vegan diets generally have higher levels of testosterone. This could be due to the higher levels of fiber and the typically lower levels of fat.

Hormone production is the primary factor making me wary of a lower fat diet and if I can find more studies such as this one, it will do a lot in making me less reluctant to try a lower fat diet.
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Re: Increasing lean muscle with BW only

#22 Postby the monkey » Thu Jun 26, 2008 4:26 pm

I think that a low fat and high carb/protein diet is not only better for health but it is also more enjoyable (at least for me), all those oats....bananas....and low fat soymilk.....

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Re: Increasing lean muscle with BW only

#23 Postby veganmaster » Fri Jun 27, 2008 10:42 am

vegetus25 wrote:veganmaster,

What gains in muscle and strength have you had since following this pattern of eating and working out?

Veg


First let me say that I'm a hermit, so I exercise at home. This led me to achieve my first muscle/strength gains using isometrics/flowing isometrics, which is to say muscle contraction without weights ;) But I've only recently become more sure about what works best for me. I'm at 5'11 170 right now, which was my highest pre-vegan weight, but it's quite a difference because now I've got some muscles - though I still have fat to lose. So I've got a long way to go, and have a couple injuries I'm slowly healing, but I feel like I've finally passed the beginners stage, finally build a new foundation of muscle and metabolism knowledge that will help me achieve my short term goal (180 ripped). I have binders full of scientific studies on metabolism/exercise, 1 folder is overfeeding, 1 exercise, 1 on mostly protein, though of course they often interlap. My knowledge on metabolism has solidified, and I'm carefully healing weak points (left foot, right hand) with full body muscle contraction and bodyweight push-ups/squats. Basically, I'm trying to be patient while my foot and hand strengthen - I am a tennis lover, rated about 4.5, and I havent been able to play for almost a year. But my goal is to be back on the courts before summer's out. I had been playing tennis on weekend with no activity during the week - plus I ignored the warning pains ;)

I guess what I'm trying to say is that I've just graduated from beginner, but I'll post some pics once I trim more fat off. I fast during the weekday until 1-3 p.m., plus I try to eat less than 10g of fat a day, without counting kcal... hmm maybe I should fast longer lol ;)
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Re: Increasing lean muscle with BW only

#24 Postby veganmaster » Fri Jun 27, 2008 12:14 pm

cubby2112 wrote:Veganmaster, your posts are intriguing. I have been researching diets lately similar to the one you have been talking about. I am one of those people who has a limitless appetite, so I am perfect for doing that diet on exclusively whole foods.
Or would I be fine so long as I select from those groups but keep my fat fairly low? It seems from the studies you have shown and what you have been saying the the CHO (I had never seen it abbreviated like this and was confused for a few seconds) to FAT ratio is the most important thing and the protein can be anywhere up to roughly 20% of calories (currently, it is 15-20% of mine) and still have roughly the same effect as if the PRO is 5% or so.

Feel free to post any other studies you find important that are along these lines or send them to me, I love reading studies.


Hehe, "CHO" - yes my nutrition degree is mostly home grown, with perhaps "unique" abbreviations/methods I use in my personal files LOL. My favorite thing about the internet is all the full scientific studies available for reading - if you have a taste for it you can really educate yourself on any topic without the propaganda (in fact the truth is often unpopular, as vegans know well)! I was going for a second degree for "Registered Dietitian" (I be gots English degree) but I quickly saw how industry-supportive colleges and their textbooks have to be to keep the money flowing to them. And the big money is in meat/dairy/junk food. Plus I was a fairly new vegan so I just couldn't swallow all that B.S.
What do you think of a diet which consists of mainly vegetables, fruit, legumes and grains with a little bit of flaxseed thrown in? Is there a strong enough reason to focus on the higher carbohydrate and lower protein foods in those groups to assist in the gain of LBM?What do you think of a diet which consists of mainly vegetables, fruit, legumes and grains with a little bit of flaxseed thrown in? Is there a strong enough reason to focus on the higher carbohydrate and lower protein foods in those groups to assist in the gain of LBM?


Yes, the evidence directly indicates that a higher CHO:F ratio leads to MORE muscle gain - as seen in my previous references. Here is another gold-standard study using whole-room calorimetry:

"Fat and carbohydrate overfeeding in humans: different effects on energy storage"
Horton et al.

Table 1 of the study illustrates the reality of this (they directly measure the output of gases from the body, thus it is very well controlled compared to nearly all nutrition studies, which tend to be correlational and out-patient/survey):

They overfed two groups (Lean & Obese) by 50% for 14d using either all CHO or all FAT; thus both groups had the same PRO intake. The data shows these increases in energy stores:

Lean Subjects: +50% CHO = +1.09 kg FAT +1.38 kg FFM
Obese Subjects: +50% CHO = +2.06 kg FAT +1.41 kg FFM

Lean Subjects:+50% FAT = +1.21 kg FAT +1.10 kg FFM
Obese Subjects:+50% FAT = +1.90 kg FAT +1.08 kg FFM


Notice that nearly 30% more muscle is deposited during CHO overfeeding versus isocaloric FAT overfeeding. And not only that, those lean subjects doing CHO overfeeding GAINED MORE MUSCLE THAN FAT. Although Obese subjects gained about the same amount of FAT on both CHO- and FAT- overfeeding (2.06 & 1.90 kg), the CHO group gained about 1 lb more muscle. I highly recommend getting the full study and reading through it, there are many striking charts, etc.

These results, check Table 6 too, are not unusual. FAT is deposited with ~97% efficiency, CHO and PRO lose almost 1/3 of their energy in being converted to FAT via De Novo Lipogenesis. The body adjusts to high-CHO by burning mostly CHO for energy (usually the mix is almost half CHO, half FAT) - in fact in less that 1 week a study on glycogen storage capacity showed the subjects oxidizing up to 1000 grams a day (+4000 kcal)! The key point in all this is that both groups had the same PRO intake AND the same total kcal intake - yet the results of CHO overfeeding are clearly much better than FAT overfeeding, in terms of the bodybuilders goal of increased muscle mass and minimized FAT mass. This is all elementary, and makes total sense to me because I've studied basic metabolism and nutrition so intensively. While the truth is somewhat complex, one need not be a nutrition nerd to understand the basics of muscle building. There basically 3 factors:
#1. Total kcal intake - surplus energy = increased storage of PRO/FAT/Glycogen
#2. Ratio of CHO/PRO/FAT: my overview of overfeeding studies plus confirming studies such as the one above show a clear pattern: the more CHO and less FAT, the more muscle and less FAT gained. Plus a couple starch-based 4300 kcal overfeeding studies* using 90 g PRO, 759 g CHO & 95g FAT have shown muscle capture rates of up to 66% - and what I mean is 60-70 grams out of 90 were deposited into PRO stores. And since we're talking actual net PRO you multiply by 5 to get LBM = ~300 g of muscle/d. Yes, that's more tha 1/2 lb of muscle a day (along with even more FAT because, as you may notice 95 grams of FAT is still enough to grow FAT stores). So 90 grams of PRO is plenty - increasing total CHO maximized nitrogen (PRO) retention. Now remember that these studies, and many of the overfeeding studies do not include exercise, other than perhaps enough to simulate normal activity levels.

* "Effect of Carbohydrate Overfeeding on Whole Body and Adipose Tissue Metabolism in Humans"
#3 Muscle work. Intense muscle contraction increases both PRO synthesis and PRO degradation - leading to a negative balance until food is present. The increase lasts 24-48 hours, and can help shift body recomposition in the right direction. But too much exercise and too high FAT or PRO intake will slow gains compared to a high CHO diet. To be sure, anyone eating whole food and satisfying their hunger gets enough PRO for muscle building - but the facts reveal that we can use knowledge of how metabolism works to put us in the driver's seat. After all, Dr. McDougall's saying "the fat you eat is the fat you wear" - is actually a useful, practical meme reflecting the more complex truth: lipids are already in the chemical form of storage, so all it takes is the energy to transport it to storage. And even when CHO intake overcomes glycogen stores, up to 1/3 of the energy is lost via DNL conversion - thus it's easy to understand why eating FAT is the #1 way to gain FAT.

Obviously, the only knowledge truly required for big muscle gain is the classic mantra: eat big, lift big (overfeeding + exercise). But I've found studying metablism really solidified my understanding of nutrition and body composition, and even physics - it really clarifies the WHY of increases/decreases in energy storage. And with that info you can manage recomposition using well-established facts of metabolism, I think the best way of researching is to ignore expert "opinions" and focus on the big picture evidence, which shows that if our overall goal is increased muscle mass and minimized body fat, then we should focus on high-CHO intake, very low fat intake and moderate PRO intake - and it is not coincidence that such a diet is exactly what our biology is adapted to - a high plant food diet.
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Re: Increasing lean muscle with BW only

#25 Postby the monkey » Fri Jun 27, 2008 6:33 pm

veganmaster would a high carbo, moderate protein and minimum fat result in maintenance of muscle and loss of fat if it was a lets say a 1,500 calorie with about less than 10g of fat as you mentioned?

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Re: Increasing lean muscle with BW only

#26 Postby cubby2112 » Fri Jun 27, 2008 8:17 pm

Thanks for pointing me to these studies, veganmaster. I downloaded the one you recommended and am printing it right now. I have always wondered how a high starch diet would affect muscle building since humans are obviously more adapted to starch consumption than any other primate and since starch is what allowed us to become what we are today.

It is getting time for some self-experimentation.
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Re: Increasing lean muscle with BW only

#27 Postby veganmaster » Sat Jun 28, 2008 8:13 am

the monkey wrote:veganmaster would a high carbo, moderate protein and minimum fat result in maintenance of muscle and loss of fat if it was a lets say a 1,500 calorie with about less than 10g of fat as you mentioned?


Well it depends on your energy expenditure, your total kcal deficit, but that is an interesting question. The study "Metabolic effects of a mixed and a high-carbohydrate low-fat diet in man" has some interesting 1 day calorimetry data:

Diet:17% PRO 4% FAT 78% CHO
kcal in: 2076
kcal out: 2534
Net kcal deficit: -458

Here the subjects performed a couple hours of pedaling (430 kcal burned). They added 17 grams of net PRO (=85g LBM), while losing 80.5 grams of FAT. So clearly when you have a workout day you can gain muscle and lose fat at the same time with a 400 kcal deficit. But where is the maintenance point? Your 1500 kcal diet is probably a net deficit of ~1000 kcal - likely enough to still maintain muscle while losing FAT, when protein synthesis is elevated from recent exercise (up to 36 hours). Another old Nitrogen balance study (can't find it right now) used a 95% CHO 5% PRO 0% FAT diet, and found nitrogen balance was met on a 3000 kcal diet (only 38 grams of protein!). Another no-FAT maintenance kcal diet was used in the study:
"Dietary fat content alters insulin-mediated glucose metabolism in healthy men"
On a zero fat, 15% PRO 85% CHO diet that met energy needs - subjects lost 1.2 grams of FAT per hour, WITHOUT exercise ("physical activity was limited to the usual daily activities.") Unfortunately they didn't measure PRO, as the study's aim was how insulin resistance increases with FAT intake.

So the answer is hard to pin down, but I think as long as you throw in some exercise to increase PS, the evidence shows just how well the body protects protein stores when exercise levels and %CHO intake are both high.

So the answer is probably yes, a 1500kcal HCLFD diet plus a bit of exercise would probably melt off over 100 g/d FAT while maintaining LBM. In fact this is why the McDougall Program For Maximum Weight loss is so successful - it calls for low-kcal green and yellow vegetables, no fat, and some starch/rice/beans etc. for hunger satisfaction. In fact I am reminded of an article he wrote showing data from his live-in program, showing that the obese lost a lot of fat, while the overly thin gained weight. Really, it's all about following the rules of nature - our bodies are designed for high activity muscle buildling and plant-based energy. Combine the two and you are working on the right side of millions of years of evolution! :)

Of course, another avenue to experiment with for fast fat loss and muscle maintenance is a protein-only fast + exercise, but that is definitely less satisfying than eating regular, small amounts of real food.
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Re: Increasing lean muscle with BW only

#28 Postby the monkey » Sat Jun 28, 2008 8:41 am

again veganmaster thank you so much for that, and i gotta say those studies and results they showed are incrdible and very convincing, as well as totally doable and enjoyable rather than being a hassle

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Re: Increasing lean muscle with BW only

#29 Postby veganmaster » Sat Jun 28, 2008 8:43 am

cubby2112 wrote:Thanks for pointing me to these studies, veganmaster. I downloaded the one you recommended and am printing it right now. I have always wondered how a high starch diet would affect muscle building since humans are obviously more adapted to starch consumption than any other primate and since starch is what allowed us to become what we are today.

It is getting time for some self-experimentation.


You're totally welcome. Yes, the recent DNA evidence is interesting, showing how we differ from our cousin primates:
http://www.drmcdougall.com/misc/2007nl/oct/fav5.htm

You're right, we are the starch-eaters!
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Re: Increasing lean muscle with BW only

#30 Postby veganmaster » Sat Jun 28, 2008 9:12 am

the monkey wrote:again veganmaster thank you so much for that, and i gotta say those studies and results they showed are incrdible and very convincing, as well as totally doable and enjoyable rather than being a hassle


I enjoy sharing the info - I should start a blog/write a book, but I never do. When I got interested in building strength and muscle, I hit the studies hard - the scientific evidence is robust, yet pretty much completely unknown/misunderstood - with many vegans and meat-eaters obsessing on eating lots of protein, without understand basic metabolism. Bodybuilding message boards will often have threads discussing "the best routine" for muscle gain, yet without really mentioning the primacy of nutrition in determining the outcome! Often nuanced truth is unpopular, because it doesn't fit as well as half-truth does into bite-size memes. And of most people's opinions are simply memes that they regurgitate without having bought logic & evidence to the table. But with unpopular truth comes Cassandra's burden. So it's refreshing that you've taken an interest, I think you are the first, lol. :)
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