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 Post subject: Re: 80/10/10 diet
PostPosted: Tue Feb 15, 2011 2:31 pm 
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Manatee
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beforewisdom wrote:
Why don't you get a copy of "Becoming Vegan" if you want to read a nutrition book? Raw"


As Erich Fromm wrote, the question is "why", not "why not". :) I've made the vegetarian-vegan transition relatively easy. The carnivore-vegetarian transition was even easier. The raw transition is a bit harder because all changes of eating habits require a lifestyle change and I eat mostly home grown food and currently I don't have the money to buy all the food I eat and we can't grow fruit on our farm at this time of the year. And I'm getting a V6 at all costs:) Apart from that I know exactly how to convert to raw food. I tried it this summer and it worked. Of course, I might read the books you recommended out of curiosity and out of reading passion if I happen to have time for it. Thanx for the tip! As to my post above, I do not think "The 80/10/10" diet qualifies as an urban myth, especially the arguments I've laid out. They can be easily checked.

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 Post subject: Re: 80/10/10 diet
PostPosted: Tue Feb 15, 2011 4:03 pm 
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This web site needs to have a warning label on it.

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 Post subject: Re: 80/10/10 diet
PostPosted: Tue Feb 15, 2011 10:53 pm 
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beforewisdom wrote:
This web site needs to have a warning label on it.


I fully agree. The fact that you can quote proven facts and scientific study via actual data and have it "discredited" by someone who claims they wish they could conduct the experiments they'd like in order to be able to prove everyone wrong who disagrees says a lot about the direction things have been heading.

2097, wisdom is not gained by avoiding proven facts and actual knowledge while coming up with unfounded hypotheses that have yet to hold any water for validity. Simply because you believe something to be true and something else to be false does not mean you are correct, and in relation to ignoring facts to reach such conclusions, it only shows a sincere lack of wisdom. Just wanted to share that with you, since it may have escaped you until this point :wink:

Like I've said before, if you want to do your own diet variations, more power to you. But trying to convince everyone your way is optimal while slamming those who disagree without any evidence to prove your points is not only silly, but irresponsible. And certainly not wise.

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 Post subject: Re: 80/10/10 diet
PostPosted: Wed Feb 16, 2011 12:52 am 
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VeganEssentials, all you said can be applied to your opinion as well. The fact that some studies support something does not mean that it is an established fact. The Earth was flat before the 16th century and that was a fact you could not argue with. You cannot tolerate a high carb diet and no matter how convinced I am in its virtues I will not try to tell you that your body is wrong or that the way you take carbs is wrong. Maybe it simply doesn't work with you. I've read studies that soy is good and that soy is bad. Which ones are true? All scientific research is dependent on the circumstances under which it was conducted. Therefore most research on pubmed.org says 'Mice show such reactions when treated with XXX in YYY conditions". Science does not jump to generalized conclusions. Popular science does. So just lay out your facts and the people will draw conclusions from them.

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 Post subject: Re: 80/10/10 diet
PostPosted: Wed Feb 16, 2011 10:13 am 
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2097 wrote:
@VeganEssentials

Again, wisdom is not the same thing as knowledge.


I don't think you or Duncan Idaho have a clue about either.

I'm guessing that both of you guys are at most in your early 20s,have not completed your educations yet and have not finished growing up on an intellectual level yet. In other words, I think you guys will grow out of it.

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 Post subject: Re: 80/10/10 diet
PostPosted: Wed Feb 16, 2011 10:32 am 
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beforewisdom wrote:
I'm guessing that both of you guys are at most in your early 20s,have not completed your educations yet and have not finished growing up on an intellectual level yet. In other words, I think you guys will grow out of it.

:D
Almost got me there :) I'm in my late 20 and I have a master's degree in law ;) If this was a brilliant trick to get personal information about me, touche :hello1: I have other 'credentials' as well, closely related to the fitness field. Not that I'm hiding anything or that people's social 'achievements' matter. I like exchanging and discussing ideas by their virtue, not by the authority of who presented them. This is the beauty of a forum:)

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 Post subject: Re: 80/10/10 diet
PostPosted: Wed Feb 16, 2011 11:36 am 
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Duncan_Idaho wrote:
beforewisdom wrote:
I'm guessing that both of you guys are at most in your early 20s,have not completed your educations yet and have not finished growing up on an intellectual level yet. In other words, I think you guys will grow out of it.

:D
Almost got me there :) I'm in my late 20 and I have a master's degree in law ;) If this was a brilliant trick to get personal information about me,


My comment wasn't meant to be personal about you, but I don't care if it was.

Just stating my honest opinion about what you write in your posts, without knowing who you are as a person, you don't seem to have an understanding of what constitutes evidence or fact.

Everybody has blind spots. There are scientists, even biologists, who are devoutly religious. Maybe nutrition is your blind spot.

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 Post subject: Re: 80/10/10 diet
PostPosted: Wed Feb 16, 2011 11:58 am 
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We don't know anything about anything. All we "know" is what is served to us through media. Therefore, I don't believe in studies, I can only read them and make my own conclusions afterwards. Scientists are payed or sponsored to get certain results for the benefit of the sponsor. I personally can make only experiments on myself and I did one with 80/10/10 diet last year and I felt great. I will do it again this year, as soon as some local fruits come. I quit 80/10/10 for the same reasons as Duncan Idaho. And if I had access to lots of fruits, especially tropical and organic, I wouldn't have second thought about eating 80/10/10 all the time. The only knowledge and evidence I have is that I personaly felt great on 80/10/10. I still enjoy "overeating" on fruit every other day. Nothing better and tastier then 10 bananas, or 2-3 kg of oranges:)))))

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 Post subject: Re: 80/10/10 diet
PostPosted: Wed Feb 16, 2011 12:21 pm 
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vege wrote:
Scientists are payed or sponsored to get certain results for the benefit of the sponsor.


Oh man, I really wish this was true. Why does everyone think us scientists are insanely rich people who are paid piles of money to fudge our data?

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 Post subject: Re: 80/10/10 diet
PostPosted: Wed Feb 16, 2011 1:01 pm 
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lobsteriffic wrote:
vege wrote:
Scientists are payed or sponsored to get certain results for the benefit of the sponsor.


Oh man, I really wish this was true. Why does everyone think us scientists are insanely rich people who are paid piles of money to fudge our data?


I never said scientist are payed PILES of money. But you can't make any relevant study without financial support. You have to work for the guys that give you money :wink: For example, milk companies pay scientists to make studies that "prove" milk is good, etc... Then soy companies pay other scientist to make the opposite studies, and at the end, who do you believe? I say, you believe in what you feel is right, and I felt right on 80/10/10. I don't need scientists to tell me so.

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 Post subject: Re: 80/10/10 diet
PostPosted: Wed Feb 16, 2011 1:12 pm 
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I started to write a big long explanation about the process through which the majority of research studies are funded, but why bother.

And FYI, funding is notoriously hard to come by for research grants. One of the reasons I left research to go to corporate America.

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 Post subject: Re: 80/10/10 diet
PostPosted: Wed Feb 16, 2011 1:20 pm 
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I'm told psychology has an old concept called "confirmation bias". This related article clued me in about it and why it is pointless "to bother" sometimes. Facts don't matter.

http://beforewisdom.com/blog/general/st ... ot-matter/

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 Post subject: Re: 80/10/10 diet
PostPosted: Wed Feb 16, 2011 1:22 pm 
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2097 wrote:
Not every teenager is naive and has made the same mistakes most teenagers make. I know what wisdom is because I was born with it.

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 Post subject: Re: 80/10/10 diet
PostPosted: Wed Feb 16, 2011 5:13 pm 
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Duncan_Idaho wrote:
VeganEssentials, all you said can be applied to your opinion as well. The fact that some studies support something does not mean that it is an established fact. The Earth was flat before the 16th century and that was a fact you could not argue with. You cannot tolerate a high carb diet and no matter how convinced I am in its virtues I will not try to tell you that your body is wrong or that the way you take carbs is wrong. Maybe it simply doesn't work with you. I've read studies that soy is good and that soy is bad. Which ones are true? All scientific research is dependent on the circumstances under which it was conducted. Therefore most research on pubmed.org says 'Mice show such reactions when treated with XXX in YYY conditions". Science does not jump to generalized conclusions. Popular science does. So just lay out your facts and the people will draw conclusions from them.


Here's the root with this - I'm not debating whether or not someone CAN do well on a diet like 80/10/10 - obviously, some of you do, and that's why I keep saying over and over again "More power to you if it works for you". The point I had in all of this is that it WON'T be optimal for everyone, and that seemed to be really hard for some people to accept. Paige clearly showed that she was not fairng well on it, and what happens? Nobody says to her "Maybe it isn't meant for your body", but instead it turned into making every excuse for why she wasn't feeling great on it and what she needed to change to "fix" the problem. She was treated as if it were simply her negligence in eating correctly that was the cause when it could well be that she'll never adapt to it without jeopardizing her health (yes, there is potential that such a purportedly "healthy" diet could in fact deteriorate someone's health if they cannot adapt to it). But god forbid someone like myself pointed out that maybe for some people it is a shitty diet, because nobody could seem to accept that not everything works for everybody the same. And here we are....

You'll always hear me say that people need to experiment, experiment, experiment with their diet and training, I shudder when people think there's only one way to get where you want to go. HOWEVER....there's a big difference between saying "I read soy is good, then I read soy is bad" and and comparing it to fact that if you don't get enough B-12 for years, you're pretty well assured of a deficiency over time that could be debilitating. For some people, soy is good. For others, soy is bad. That's the way it goes, it isn't a black and white issue. BUT, for EVERYONE, a B-12 deficiency is bad, and I'd like to see proof that it could be beneficial if anyone would like to hear myself and others stop insisting it should be a concern. And, to alleviate this concern, what does it take? A tiny tablet popped under the tongue maybe once or twice a week. The harsh attitude against a tiny proactive measure we talk about isn't because we've got some vested interest in convincing anti-supplement people to fold on their beliefs. It's because we'd like to see you all HEALTHY - just because you may be now does NOT mean it can't come back to haunt you later if left unchecked. Believe me, I couldn't care less if some of the people who vehemently defend 80/10/10 want to see my head on a stake after what I've said, I still want to see the best for everyone and that they have OPTIMAL health, not just that they're keeping their fingers crossed that they'll be okay in the long run.

It always feels to me like when you see a mother trying to spoon feed an infant who just won't accept that it's time to eat - no matter how much it's for the good of everyone to hear it, some people thrive on defiance, I just can't figure out why else anyone would battle the B-12 issue so hard. Even if you don't want to accept it as absolute fact that you should be taking in some additional B-12 to avoid a deficiency, there's a whole lot more science out there to show in favor of it than there are of people saying that you don't need to worry about it. What astounds me the most about it is, there's not even an ethical position to take against B-12 supplementation, it's purely the "I'll show you all, I'll never get sick from it!" attitude that I keep hearing, as if there's something to prove by not taking a simple measure to protect one's health. That, in and of itself, contradicts 2097's notions of "wisdom" quite well, avoiding the majority of fact in order to say "I know better than everyone else" - that's pure EGO, definitely not wisdom. Sadly, some people are confused because their ego exceeds their wisdom, and they're usually the last ones to find that out.

I'll gladly side with the overwhelming majority who have spent their lives studying such issues, than hope and pray that the fraction who disagree are actually the ones who know what they're talking about. It isn't as if we've been saying to swallow a cyanide capsule each day in hopes of preventing a deficiency here, it's just B-12...it's just B-12...it's just B-12....

Here's the final point that should close this whole discussion out, though I'm expecting someone to try and work around it and prove it incorrect:

By my suggesting that everyone take a B-12 supplement from time to time, it isn't doing damage to the health of those who choose to listen. Worst case is that they already have adequate levels and it doesn't give them additional benefit, but they are "insured" against deficiency nonetheless. HOWEVER....if you tell people NOT to worry about it and not to supplement, it won't improve their health any, and it may well lead to a decline and illness in the long run. Which one is more "wise" to follow? It really isn't that hard to figure out.

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 Post subject: Re: 80/10/10 diet
PostPosted: Wed Feb 16, 2011 6:29 pm 
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Duncan_Idaho wrote:
The Earth was flat before the 16th century and that was a fact you could not argue with.

I'm not interested in b12 in the slightest, but:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eratosthenes

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