Vegan Bodybuilding & Fitness

Healthy Food Defines You
It is currently Thu Oct 23, 2014 12:33 am

All times are UTC - 5 hours




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 36 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: Gaining on the 811 diet?
PostPosted: Sun Dec 04, 2011 5:03 am 
Offline
Finch

Joined: Mon Nov 07, 2011 2:55 am
Posts: 7
While I appreciate your comment veganessentials, I am not quite sure what you are getting at. I never said raw foodists are disease-proof. No-one would make that statement. However, there is plenty of empirical evidence that proves eating a low-fat high-carb vegan diet reduces the risk of developing many diseases to a much greater degree than a cooked vegan diet. So, yes, it is proven fact that having a cooked food diet would automatically condemn one to a life of sub-optimal health and disease in relation to an 811 raw food diet. I can PM you many different sources on various aspects of how an 811 raw food diet has been scientifically proven to be healthier. It is a wide-ranging topic, so let me know specifically which aspects you are interested in. 811 is about science, history, and nature. An easy intro to the diet is the book the ‘80-10-10 diet’ by Dr. Douglas Graham.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Gaining on the 811 diet?
PostPosted: Sun Dec 04, 2011 12:33 pm 
Offline
Rabbit

Joined: Sun May 15, 2011 1:56 am
Posts: 62
Location: Best Place On Earth
I would like to give the 811 another shot this spring, I did experiment with it following it 100% a couple years ago for 6 months... results weren't good but I think if I try it again and keeping track of everything I eat I could make it work.. tweaking it slightly too and not following it 100%. I like the idea and it does make sense in some ways.

_________________
Sarah :)


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Gaining on the 811 diet?
PostPosted: Sun Dec 04, 2011 3:38 pm 
Offline
Elephant
User avatar

Joined: Mon Apr 28, 2008 12:10 pm
Posts: 2357
Location: Bakersfield, CA, USA
veganfilmmaker wrote:
....there is plenty of empirical evidence that proves eating a low-fat high-carb vegan diet reduces the risk of developing many diseases to a much greater degree than a cooked vegan diet. So, yes, it is proven fact that having a cooked food diet would automatically condemn one to a life of sub-optimal health and disease in relation to an 811 raw food diet. I can PM you many different sources on various aspects of how an 811 raw food diet has been scientifically proven to be healthier. It is a wide-ranging topic, so let me know specifically which aspects you are interested in. 811 is about science, history, and nature. An easy intro to the diet is the book the ‘80-10-10 diet’ by Dr. Douglas Graham.


I'm sorry, but this is not true. Dr. Graham is a well-meaning person I am sure, but he quite often cherry-picks the data to help support his theories, as well as ignoring data that contradict what he wants to believe.

If you would like to read a strongly researched book on the subject, I highly recommend Becoming Raw, by Melino and Davis. It is well-sourced, thoughtful, and comes to an unbiased conclusion about raw foods versus cooked foods.
http://www.amazon.com/Becoming-Raw-Essential-Guide-Vegan/dp/1570672385

From the (limited) research available, some foods are healthier when cooked and some are healthier when raw, but what it ultimately comes down to is getting plenty of fruits and vegetables in your diet. That, no one will disagree with. :)

_________________
Learning how to be compassionate, gain wisdom, and love life.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Gaining on the 811 diet?
PostPosted: Sun Dec 04, 2011 8:38 pm 
Offline
Finch

Joined: Mon Nov 07, 2011 2:55 am
Posts: 7
Interesting point Fallen Horse. But, I didn't say the sources about 811 were from Dr. Graham..I only said his book was a good introduction to the diet. I actually have 'Becoming Raw'. It is a great book. Cheers.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Gaining on the 811 diet?
PostPosted: Sun Dec 04, 2011 9:10 pm 
Offline
Rabbit

Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2011 11:27 pm
Posts: 39
Location: CO
i would suggest that you guys check out Brian clement and Hippocrates health institute. (they are non profit)
They probably have the most evolved diet on the planet--it revolves around raw food. Its all backed by at least 50 years of clinical trials and scientific research.

they have a really good dvd set which ive seen, but im sure most of it is on youtube as well.
check out this 3 part interview http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W-50X4AFqro

all sorts of interesting info in this diet, check it out!

edit: gotta throw this out there too!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-as-09LN ... re=related


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Gaining on the 811 diet?
PostPosted: Wed Dec 07, 2011 1:16 pm 
Offline
Rabbit

Joined: Mon Feb 07, 2011 9:50 pm
Posts: 17
multipass,

Quote:
They probably have the most evolved diet on the planet--it revolves around raw food. Its all backed by at least 50 years of clinical trials and scientific research.


What would an athlete eat for say 5000 calories on the diet suggested by Brian Clement?

Fallen Horse,

Quote:
veganfilmmaker wrote:
....there is plenty of empirical evidence that proves eating a low-fat high-carb vegan diet reduces the risk of developing many diseases to a much greater degree than a cooked vegan diet. So, yes, it is proven fact that having a cooked food diet would automatically condemn one to a life of sub-optimal health and disease in relation to an 811 raw food diet. I can PM you many different sources on various aspects of how an 811 raw food diet has been scientifically proven to be healthier. It is a wide-ranging topic, so let me know specifically which aspects you are interested in. 811 is about science, history, and nature. An easy intro to the diet is the book the ‘80-10-10 diet’ by Dr. Douglas Graham.


Quote:
I'm sorry, but this is not true.


You quoted quite a bit. What do you find to be untrue? Would not raw food be considered whole food? And therefore cooked food, due to its refinement, heating, destruction and depletion of vitamins and minerals, derangement of protein, loss of water, caramelizing of carbohydrates, and heated fats, be less than optimal in comparison to the exact same foods, but in their raw, whole state?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Gaining on the 811 diet?
PostPosted: Wed Dec 07, 2011 4:27 pm 
Offline
Rabbit

Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2011 11:27 pm
Posts: 39
Location: CO
rawsomehealth wrote:
What would an athlete eat for say 5000 calories on the diet suggested by Brian Clement?


Well that's a interesting thing--this diet discards the idea of calories.
Its not about how much you eat--it becomes.. of what you eat, what can your body actually absorb, and how nutrient dense and beneficial is it.

If you are eating very nutritional food, all of which your body wants to and can use, it digests easily without much effort, and then you don't have to eat as much.
If you are eating some not-so nutritional food, you have to eat a lot of it, your body has to work much harder to digest it, and wont use very much of it.

Essentially this diet becomes a body cleanse/detoxification..resulting in your body being able to absorb the food you eat fully and correctly.

I'd suggest looking into it more, I can only explain it so well from what I remember.


Last edited by multipass on Wed Dec 07, 2011 8:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Gaining on the 811 diet?
PostPosted: Wed Dec 07, 2011 8:20 pm 
Offline
Elephant
User avatar

Joined: Mon Apr 28, 2008 12:10 pm
Posts: 2357
Location: Bakersfield, CA, USA
rawsomehealth wrote:
You quoted quite a bit. What do you find to be untrue? Would not raw food be considered whole food? And therefore cooked food, due to its refinement, heating, destruction and depletion of vitamins and minerals, derangement of protein, loss of water, caramelizing of carbohydrates, and heated fats, be less than optimal in comparison to the exact same foods, but in their raw, whole state?


I did quote a bit; sorry for that.

Raw food is a 'whole food', meaning nothing has been extracted from the food. However, cooked food is just as 'whole', since nothing has been extracted. Some vitamins and minerals are destroyed, depending on the type of cooking, and some vitamins and minerals are actually made more accessible by cooking. In 'Becoming Vegan' there is a handy chart of all the recent studies on the subject, including which foods have decreased vitamin availability when cooked and which foods have increased availability when cooked. I should mention the type of cooking also has a great effect, with steaming generally being a good method, as well as microwaving. Frying is almost always the least desirable, since it burns the food and creates more carcinogens. This would the be carmelizing you referred to.

Jack Norris has a page about raw food diets. It's not nearly as comprehensive as 'Becoming Raw', but it's worth a read. http://www.veganhealth.org/articles/cooking

_________________
Learning how to be compassionate, gain wisdom, and love life.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Gaining on the 811 diet?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 08, 2011 1:06 am 
Offline
Stegosaurus
User avatar

Joined: Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm
Posts: 3072
Location: Waukesha, WI
veganfilmmaker wrote:
While I appreciate your comment veganessentials, I am not quite sure what you are getting at. I never said raw foodists are disease-proof. No-one would make that statement.


You'd actually be surprised - we had some raw folks here once who actually had the audacity to make claims along the lines of "a raw diet makes you disease-proof, and will reverse the symptoms of any/all diseases, including HIV" :wink: I'm simply stating that, just as a non-raw diet doesn't guarantee sub-optimal health (I can go outside any day and find lots of ominvores who eat terribly and are still in great health), and I can also find raw foodists who will still be capable of coming down with many of the same health issues that cooked foodists of any diet can develop. Just trying to keep things factual from both sides, because you can be healthy on just about any diet, and you can be terribly ill on any diet. I've just seen too many people here over the years that have made some outlandish claims about raw being the ONLY way to optimal health, I just like to clear the air that it doesn't offer any guarantees, and while some may thrive on it, some might find it is not the diet best suited for them :wink:

veganfilmmaker wrote:
However, there is plenty of empirical evidence that proves eating a low-fat high-carb vegan diet reduces the risk of developing many diseases to a much greater degree than a cooked vegan diet.


I wish it were true for all, but a low fat/high carb vegan diet only makes me gain fat quickly, feel sluggish and bloated, and feel worse overall. Done it cooked, done it while 80% raw, neither one as a high carb diet felt good for me at any point. Some people, myself included, do MUCH better on moderate to high protein, moderate fat, and moderate carbs, not allowing any one macronutrient to be excessively higher than another. 17 years of trial-and-error have taught me one thing - there's so much variance from person to person in how we may respond to the same diet, I'm always reluctant to promote any specific type of vegan diet or macronutrient ratio as being best for everyone, as it just isn't the case. Would be nice, though, if there was a set way we could all achieve optimal health and fitness on a single diet plan! :D

veganfilmmaker wrote:
So, yes, it is proven fact that having a cooked food diet would automatically condemn one to a life of sub-optimal health and disease in relation to an 811 raw food diet.


Not going to get too much into this, but I've never seen the actual science behind those sort of statements, primarly just a lot of guru gibberish from authors who are out to sell you a book and use anecdotal evidence over hard data. There just isn't anything conclusive to show that a cooked food diet means that you will live a less healthy life than one all-raw. If that were the case, people like Jack LaLanne wouldn't have been eating partially cooked/partially raw diets and performing amazing feats well into his 80s. Nor would there be bodybuilders like Bill Pearl who have physiques better than men half their age who can still lift heavy heading into their golden years. To make something conclusive and without discussion as far as fact, it would have to be overwhelmingly evident that people were all getting sick and dying sooner on a cooked diet than a raw one, but we've all heard of normal folks living into their 100s on cooked diets, and I've heard about people dying younger than expected or coming down with grave illnesses on raw diets. That's the reason why I say that no general diet based on quality foods (not processed garbage) guarantees a person to sub-optimal health, and it still is possible to have a diet that's "flawless" and still be unhealthy.

veganfilmmaker wrote:
I can PM you many different sources on various aspects of how an 811 raw food diet has been scientifically proven to be healthier. It is a wide-ranging topic, so let me know specifically which aspects you are interested in. 811 is about science, history, and nature. An easy intro to the diet is the book the ‘80-10-10 diet’ by Dr. Douglas Graham.


Thanks, but no thanks (not meaning to be rude, but honestly, no thank you). Dr. Graham has been a topic of discussion here many times regarding the fact that he's not a physician (he is a chiropractor), is not a licensed nutritionist, and it has been difficult to really find out much about his actual instruction regarding nutriton from decades ago. There seems to be as much in the way of natural mysticism as there is fact-based approach in much of what I've heard about his writings, though I admit, I've gone primarily on what science-based nutrition writers have said as I don't have any desire to read about 80/10/10 as it's a plan that I would not follow. I do appreciate the offer to steer toward info, but having already experimented with a mostly raw diet and the lack of "feeling better" for doing so, I've learned that some things just aren't for me, particularly anything that is high in carbohydrates and low in fat and protein.

I certainly do wish anyone who goes with a raw or 80/10/10 approach the best and that they can thrive on it, I just know that it is not for everyone based on my own experimentations. That's why I'm often seen chiming in regarding the diet as there have been no shortage of people here over the years who made some pretty outlandish claims, got extremely upset when people wanted evidence and they couldn't provide it - things often went south in a hurry with hurt feelings and people getting mad over a simple difference of opinion on what the "best" diet was. Again, more power to those who choose a raw path and do well with it, I just prefer to not see blanket statements that infer it's always superior and offers guaranteed benefits over cooked food diets that may not actually be true.

_________________
"A 'hardgainer' is merely someone who hasn't bothered to try enough different training methods to learn what is actually right for their own damned body." - anonymous


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Gaining on the 811 diet?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 08, 2011 12:16 pm 
Offline
Elephant
User avatar

Joined: Sat Oct 28, 2006 5:26 pm
Posts: 1619
Location: Michigan
VeganEssentials wrote:
I just prefer to not see blanket statements that infer it's always superior and offers guaranteed benefits over cooked food diets that may not actually be true.


I will agree to this. I went raw, the 80-10-10 way, for 7 months. I felt fine, and it was all good. Then I went for my routine check-up, and my blood came back severely anemic. I will not say that the raw diet made me anemic. But whatever was making me anemic, the raw food diet did not 'cure' it.

I could even theorized that the green smoothies with the spinach emulsified with the fruit, could have caused the oxalic acid in the spinach to totally ravage any metallic ion in my blood stream (oxalic acid chelates many metals - iron, magnesium, manganese, etc.). I still love my raw vegan smoothies (without the spinach), while bulking with cooked whole grains right now.

Blanket statements where everything is excluded except for the one true way, is never a good idea. People's bodies are each individually different, and have separate instructions to go along with each genetic predispositon, lifestyle, and goals in mind.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Gaining on the 811 diet?
PostPosted: Fri Dec 23, 2011 2:39 am 
Offline
Gorilla
User avatar

Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2011 11:10 am
Posts: 501
Location: Cleveland, OH
I read through this whole thread and started mentally typing up my own response until I got to VeganEssentials last post. One of the most articulate and best things I've ever read on a fitness forum.

There is no such thing as "one for all" diet, which is the biggest problem with fitness dialogue - the most important part of designing a program (be a fitness one or a nutrition one) is taking the individual into account. Everyone's body responds differently (mentally and physically) to different macronutrient ratios and training routines - it's about finding what works best for that specific person. Blanket statements and cure-alls do not exist and talking about any diet or program like it's the be-all end-all only perpetuates people not finding out what works for best for them.

Also, saying that a specific diet inherently makes one "healthier" than everyone else is a serious over-generalization and, largely, untrue.

_________________
"When in doubt, squat and run hills." - Jim Wendler

IRON MNTN // LOG


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Gaining on the 811 diet?
PostPosted: Fri Dec 23, 2011 2:55 am 
Offline
Rabbit

Joined: Mon Dec 28, 2009 4:07 pm
Posts: 66
vegansludge wrote:
There is no such thing as "one for all" diet, which is the biggest problem with fitness dialogue - the most important part of designing a program (be a fitness one or a nutrition one) is taking the individual into account.

I used to think that is what nutritionists are for. Then I noticed that a lot (almost all?) of them seem to play the same old record they learned in school over and over again and that's it. Disappointing.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Gaining on the 811 diet?
PostPosted: Sat Dec 24, 2011 1:23 am 
Offline
Gorilla
User avatar

Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2011 11:10 am
Posts: 501
Location: Cleveland, OH
Mufflon wrote:
vegansludge wrote:
There is no such thing as "one for all" diet, which is the biggest problem with fitness dialogue - the most important part of designing a program (be a fitness one or a nutrition one) is taking the individual into account.

I used to think that is what nutritionists are for. Then I noticed that a lot (almost all?) of them seem to play the same old record they learned in school over and over again and that's it. Disappointing.


Well, in one way or another, it "pays the bills" to regurgitate that kind of misinformation - if you start contradicting the norm, people think you're crazy, especially when it comes to nutrition. And I think this is largely the case because a lot of "nutritionists" like to separate exercise and nutrition instead of realizing that they work together to achieve optimum health and fitness results.

_________________
"When in doubt, squat and run hills." - Jim Wendler

IRON MNTN // LOG


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Gaining on the 811 diet?
PostPosted: Sat Dec 31, 2011 12:36 am 
Offline
Rabbit

Joined: Fri May 22, 2009 7:41 pm
Posts: 50
Location: South Carolina
johnthomas, what is your diet like? How in the world do you manage to get 300 grams of protein per day on a vegan diet?

_________________
eat like a gorilla


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Gaining on the 811 diet?
PostPosted: Sat Dec 31, 2011 2:25 am 
Offline
Manatee
User avatar

Joined: Sun Oct 23, 2011 7:52 am
Posts: 236
Location: Norwich UK
I get 290grams, its not that hard with tofu, lentils and protein powders

_________________
You say obsessed; I say dedicated.
My VBB&F Journal
Twitter - Follow me
Facebook - Add me


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 36 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next

All times are UTC - 5 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot] and 2 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  



{ ASACP_CREDITS }
{ ASACP_CREDITS }
{ ASACP_CREDITS } Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group