Vegan Bodybuilding & Fitness

Healthy Food Defines You
It is currently Mon Apr 21, 2014 12:12 am

All times are UTC - 5 hours




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 6 posts ] 
Author Message
 Post subject: Question for the Daywalker
PostPosted: Sun Sep 11, 2005 3:27 pm 
Offline
Rabbit
User avatar

Joined: Sat Aug 27, 2005 10:47 am
Posts: 121
Location: Brighton, UK
Hi Alex,

I don't know if you've covered this before, if you have just pass me the link, but you've said a couple of times that you believe that you can cut & build muscle mass at the same time. I'd be really interested in your views about how you'd go about that (& anyone elses of course, but Alex is the only person, so far, to mention it).
No worries if it'd take too long or whatever (I know contest is coming closer & how that can drain you), just interested in your take on nutrition.

_________________
Pete
http://www.veganbodybuilding.org
Vegan Bodybuilding List
Vegan Bodybuilding Facebook


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Sep 11, 2005 4:24 pm 
Offline
Elephant
User avatar

Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2005 3:38 pm
Posts: 1869
Location: Vegan Strength Cult, German HQ
Hi Pete.

I'll do my best to answer that question in short ;) It's a complex topic.

First, muscle growth is NOT dependent on a caloric plus. Not even on a protein plus, for a short time. If you have the right stimulus, the muscle will grow.
That means, if you get the right stimulus, the muscle will grow regardless of the energy situation (well, almost). If you're on a calory restricted diet, the body will use the fat as energy source.

It's not that easy to calculate it right, of course, but i've done so several times before. It's easiest to just work out hard, eat lot of protein and restrict your calories, mainly the fat calories.

I'd recommend the HST principles and work out as often as possible.

I think it's harder the more advanced you already are, because the more muscle you have, the harder it gets to grow more. But you can still stay lean without worrying too much about not growing, when you get the stimulus right and eat protein.
Having said that, i admit that i am a hardgainer, i eat everything i can find and still grow very slow :roll: I don't believe in high protein diets (i think more than the need is waste), if that sounded so. Adequate protein is at least 1g per kg bodyweight, but more than 1.5g shouldn't be necessary.

Was that enough or should i go into more detail?

_________________
No one said it would be easy.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Sep 11, 2005 4:46 pm 
Offline
Rabbit
User avatar

Joined: Sat Aug 27, 2005 10:47 am
Posts: 121
Location: Brighton, UK
So, actually you're talking about hitting that exact balance where you're eating enough to still add muscle, but doing it at a slight calorific deficit.
I've always thought of muscle as as a kind of luxury item for the body. You can have it, but only if everything else you need to pay for is accounted for first.
So, if I've got this right you believe that given enough stimulus (i.e. training hard enough) you can make muscle gain a higher priority than fat storage. Your body starts thinking "I need seriously more muscle or this is going to kill me", so even while you are losing fat, you can still add muscle. If this is right I can see why it'd be harder the more you developed (that would be logical).
That's interesting. Is there any methods you found for determing the best calorific intake, or are you a more instinctive eater. I've never come across this style of eating before, be great if you had some sort of method that others could use to try & duplicate your style of eating?

One final thing, have you ever tried the more traditional bulking/cutting style of diet, if so, what have been the results, better, worse, the same???

Sorry, to be quizzing you so much, but this is the first new type of diet I come across in a long time (oh lord that sounded so nutrition-geek :( )

_________________
Pete
http://www.veganbodybuilding.org
Vegan Bodybuilding List
Vegan Bodybuilding Facebook


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Sep 12, 2005 6:29 am 
Offline
Elephant
User avatar

Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2005 3:38 pm
Posts: 1869
Location: Vegan Strength Cult, German HQ
Hi Pete :)

(i already replied to your post, but before i could submit it, my computer had a breakdown :( so again ;) )

Pete wrote:
So, actually you're talking about hitting that exact balance where you're eating enough to still add muscle, but doing it at a slight calorific deficit.

Sort of. The deficit doesn't have to be slight, when you want to burn much fat (and have much to burn).

Quote:
I've always thought of muscle as as a kind of luxury item for the body. You can have it, but only if everything else you need to pay for is accounted for first.

I always thought so, too. But it's not quite true. Muscles will grow when the stimulus is there and the protein requirements are met. (Of course, there are other things that require protein to be synthesized, such unimportant stuff like blood, enzymes and fast replacing tissues ;) )

Quote:
So, if I've got this right you believe that given enough stimulus (i.e. training hard enough) you can make muscle gain a higher priority than fat storage.

Yes. Fat metabolism has not much to do with muscle metabolism. Fat is stored when you eat more calories than you need. Muscles grow when.. okay, i said that before ;)

Quote:
Your body starts thinking "I need seriously more muscle or this is going to kill me", so even while you are losing fat, you can still add muscle.

No, that's not what i mean. I used to believe that, too, it's the HIT philosophy: you have to destroy your muscle, to show it that it's too weak for the demands, to force it to grow. My experience showed me that this is only partially true, it's a wrong interpretation of the things going on when you're adapting to weight training.
Now i believe rather in HST principles (www.hypertrophy-specific.com). When lifting heavy weights, the muscle gets micro-traumata, even when not exercised with HIT-like intensity. The reparation of those leads to muscle growth and increase in strength.
Building muscle is very costly, energetically speaking, so it helps burning fat when you at the same time eat with a caloric deficit.

Quote:
If this is right I can see why it'd be harder the more you developed (that would be logical).

I think it's harder because there is a limit to muscle mass. You build muscles slower, more reluctantly, when you already got a fair mass. Therefore, when you want to add more muscle, come closer to your full potential, you can't afford to eat low calory, especially when you're already low in bodyfat.

Quote:
That's interesting. Is there any methods you found for determing the best calorific intake, or are you a more instinctive eater. I've never come across this style of eating before, be great if you had some sort of method that others could use to try & duplicate your style of eating?

Since turning vegan, i've become a totally instinctive eater. I don't calculate or even estimate my calories. I eat as often and as much (in total, not per meal) as i can, because i want to gain, and i am a skinny guy, genetically. I try to eat high protein foods (soy, nuts, grains, seeds and so on), but eat virtually everything when bulking (what i'm nearly always doning ;) ).
To bodybuilders who are easy-gainers (in terms of fat) i'd recommend to eat low fat, moderate carb and (relatively) high protein (1-1.5g/kg/day). When you want to cut, eat slightly less calories than you need, take your time, be patient. When you want to bulk, don't exaggerate the calories, just meet your requirements, and stay away from sugar and junk food. You can't force your muscles to grow by overeating (calories are not a growth-stimulus ;) ). Again, be patient.

Quote:
One final thing, have you ever tried the more traditional bulking/cutting style of diet, if so, what have been the results, better, worse, the same???

I've always been trying to bulk, but i don't get fat. Okay, there were a couple of times when i was a little fatter than now, before i turned vegan, and before i started lifting. The only times when i cut down is pre-contest.

Quote:
Sorry, to be quizzing you so much, but this is the first new type of diet I come across in a long time (oh lord that sounded so nutrition-geek :( )

No need to apologize, mate :) That's what the forum is there for! I enjoy the discussion and infromatin exchange here! I've already found so many good advice and inspiration here.

Have a great day,
Daywalker 8)

_________________
No one said it would be easy.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Sep 12, 2005 7:17 am 
Offline
Rabbit
User avatar

Joined: Sat Aug 27, 2005 10:47 am
Posts: 121
Location: Brighton, UK
Thanks for that breakdown mate. You are a true bodybuilding maverick (that's a complement :D ). I'll definitely look into this style of eating, as it's a take on muscle building nutrition I haven't seen before 8) .
Speak to you later :D

_________________
Pete
http://www.veganbodybuilding.org
Vegan Bodybuilding List
Vegan Bodybuilding Facebook


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Sep 12, 2005 7:24 am 
Offline
Elephant
User avatar

Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2005 3:38 pm
Posts: 1869
Location: Vegan Strength Cult, German HQ
:)
Actually, what i forgot to make clear: i do not suggest that bulking and cutting at the same time is the perfect way. But i often hear people complaining about getting fat while bulking or losing muscle while cutting and i think it's possible to do both at the same time. You just have to make up your mind what your goal is and then head for it. It's probably easier and faster to only bulk or cut at a time. BUT i think while bulking, one shouldn't eat so much that he/she gáins too much fat, a little is okay. On the other hand, while cutting, it's necessary to lift heavy in order not to lose muscle mass.
Okay, 'nuff said :D I keep repeating myself... :roll:

_________________
No one said it would be easy.


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 6 posts ] 

All times are UTC - 5 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  



{ ASACP_CREDITS }
{ ASACP_CREDITS }
{ ASACP_CREDITS } Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group