He's NEVER eaten Meat

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ISETFIRE
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#16 Postby ISETFIRE » Mon Jul 18, 2005 3:17 pm

@jonathan: Maybe the moral difference could be that you accept the death of an animal, but don't want to eat the corpse of it.

My final step of becoming a vegan by the way, is to quit cheese. i have no problem with milk or eggs, but sometimes I can't stand a good Pizza. :?


But back to your discussion! you listed pretty much all the important arguments for becoming a vegan, so I better copy, paste and safe it on my computer. so whenever somebody asks me sth like "what's so bad about drinking milk?", I'm gonna simply give him your text. :wink:


being vegan is simply doing your utmost to limit any animal suffering.


The only question is: how perfect to you want to bè? Where does it stop?


When you go out with your friends or family to a normal restaurant (or maybe even McD). Will you eat some at that place? You could argue that the money you give them benefits the restaurant and in return they can better keep going selling meat.
or do you see it the way that you order a vegan food and in return maybe the restaurant starts putting more vegan foods to their card to attract vegans more?

Do you drive a car? It destroys our planet, man! If you want to limit animal suffering as much as possible you can't do that...

I mean, those are are more or less stupid questions, I know. :wink: I just wanted to show how difficult it is "to do your utmost".
-tomorrow come today-

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#17 Postby jonathan » Mon Jul 18, 2005 4:11 pm

this was my last trip to mcdonalds - im the tall topless guy.

[img][img]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v231/bob280784/37722.jpg[/img][/img]

i dont drive a car as they are unnecessary and not morally justifiable in the city where i live as public transport is excellent.

i rarely ever go to non veggie restuarants and do most of my grocery shopping with veggie shops and a vegan buying group.

i know that it is impossible to be perfect but it is quite easy to do alot.

i am glad that you can use some of things that i have posted :)

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#18 Postby ISETFIRE » Mon Jul 18, 2005 4:23 pm

good stuff!
-tomorrow come today-

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#19 Postby jonathan » Mon Jul 18, 2005 4:42 pm

Ich hasse McDorf!
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#20 Postby ISETFIRE » Mon Jul 18, 2005 5:03 pm

:D but you better say McDoof (=McDumb). McDorf = McVillage :wink:


And now they are trying to attract all those wellness people with their new salad campaign and shit like you also see in the picture... :?
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#21 Postby jonathan » Mon Jul 18, 2005 5:59 pm

my god my written german sucks. i am half german and my spoken german has always been good. just my spelling that lets me down.

Es ist jest 4 jahre als Ich zum letzen mal in Duetschland gewissen bin. Ich muss viel Duesch lessen, das Ich es verbessern kann.

i apologise in advance for the spelling!

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#22 Postby CollegeB » Mon Jul 18, 2005 10:17 pm

There is a way the vegetarianism does directly contrbiute to the death of animals... Rennet and gelatin. There are many vegetarians that still eat yogurt which has gelatin in it, and it is an animal product only produced from dead animals, the same with Rennet. Rennet is used in cheese. I am not sure for what purpose. There are cheeses without rennet, but mozarella usually has it. I am sure there are other examples but i just wanted to put some weight on johnathan's argument.

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#23 Postby compassionategirl » Mon Jul 18, 2005 11:02 pm

Of course, me being me, I canot help but join in this debate.

Jonathan, after many hours of quiet self-reflection and brutal self-honesty, I see that what you say - about how vegetarians are vegetarian primarily to reduce the suffering of their own consciences first and foremost - is true. :cry: I have been interrogating my soul for hours and trying to find the truth about why it took me so long to go from being meat free, to also being egg, cheese and milk free. My vegetarianism came with an immediate awareness of the immorality of wearing animals too. The moment I stopped eating animal flesh I also stopped wearing it (i have always felt that if an animal is unethical in your mouth, then it is just as unethical on your back or on your feet). But, I continued eating cheese, milk and eggs. After being brutally honest with myself and interrogating my soul, I know why. It is because I told myself the following thoughts and convinced myself of the following:

"Well, I may not be vegan, but at least I am vegetarian, which is more than I can say for the vast majority of the rest of the human population. SO I am clearly doing more than most people to at least make some effort at reducing animal suffering and thus I should be given a pat on the back! At least I have made this huge sacrifice of giving up flesh."

So your right, Jonathan. My vegetarianism was a way for me to feel less guilty about my contribution to animal exploitation, especially because I loved animals so much - i needed to do SOMETHING to make myself feel less hypcritical, and more morally "enlightened". And vegetarianism did that for me. At least for a few years. Fortunately, my love for animals proved, in the end, to be stronger than my self-delusion and my selfishness. Although I am NO WHERE NEAR a perfect vegan, I now accept that eggs, milk and cheese are no less benign than actual dead animal flesh. having said that, I still in moments of weakness allow the devil to get the better of me and I give in to a scoop of ice cream or a whey protein shakeor whatever, but thankfully, this is the exception rather than the norm, and after each "slip", I am hard on myself. I no longer try to console myself with delusional thoughts like the ones I noted above.

So I agree with Jonathan in that vegetarianism can be dangerous to the extant that it makes people's consciences feel lighter, but this is falsely lighter - they havent in actual fact undertaken a lifestyle that makes a meaningful or significant impact in reducing animal suffering. The only suffering that vegetarianism really reduces is the suffering of that person's concsience.

Having said that though, it is interesting to note that many people who are now vegan were FIRST vegetarian (I dont have actual stats, but I am just speaking from my experiecnes with vegans). In fact, I think most people on this board were veg first before they went vegan. My point is that I think it is unlikely that a die heard carnivore is going to take what would to her seem like a radical, alomost impossible step and go from carnivore to vegan in one step. That is just too huge of a change, and as a person who has many meat eating friends who wont even consider VEGETARIANISM, I really do think that this is unlikely to be the course of one's evolution in consciousness. SO, I think you might get people to go vegan first by getting them to go veg. AT least vegetarians already have some demonstrated awareness of the ethical issues involved (however limited that awareness currently is), and, more importantly, a willingness to listen and to be receptive to ethical arguments and animal rights concerns.

Again, after honest and brutal self-relfection, I asked myself: Would natalie have gone vegan right off the bat if she was first presented to animal rights through a vegan path instead of a welfarist or vegetarian path? yes, I would have gone from meat eater to straight vegan. BUT that is only because I have compassion and love for all animals. Not everybody though is like us. I know people who love animals (have pets of all kinds), and would even help a chichen or a pig in need. yet, after presenting them with all the literature, etc. they STILL refuse to go even at least vegetarian, which, in my opinion, is the LEAST that the whole world can do right here, right now. There is simply NO EXCUSE not to be at the very least, vegetarian! yet the fact of the matter is that most people are too selfish and self-indulgent to be even that!!

So I am ambivalent towards vegetarianism for the above reasons. On the one hand, I totally see what Jonathan means about it doing nothing more than easing people's guilty consciences. yet, on the other hand, many (though certainly not all) of us on these boards were vegetarian first, before we were vegan, and some people might have ran the other way if they were asked to go from meat eating straight to veganism. So hard core veganism right off the bat might alienate potential vegans in this way too, thereby also having the same undesired effect of vegetarianism described by Jonathan.

All I know is that while I am by no means perfect, I try to always be honest with myself about the implications of my choices, and, even though I am probably too undisciplined, morally weak and lazy to be a perfect or even "hard core" vegan, I hope that continued honesty and self-reflection will at least keep me on the right path, heading in the right direction. And I believe that hard core veganism is the path that every human being should set for themselves and strive for, as it is the only moral thing to do.

Because, in the end, there is at least one truth out there that is indeed "Truth" with a capital "T", and that is that animals have the right to live their lives, free from human molestation, interference, or exploitation, and that they are NOT means to human ends. period. THis is not a political consideration, or an opinion that is subject to debate, in my opinion and indeed I am sure in all of our opinons. IT is plain, cold hard truth - as plain as the sun and the sky and the moon. i try to stay focused on that and measure my actions against that maxim which my heart and my mind believes in 100%. Sometimes I may fall short, (and I make myself morally sick when I do) :cry: but thankfully, most of the time, I dont. And I continue to draw inspiration and strength from people like you, Kollision, Robert, Ash, and all the others who are hard core, unrelenting and uncompromising vegans - people who set the standard and remind us daily that there is NO EXCUSE for anything less.


And as much as I would like to think of myself as an enviro rights person too, I do drive a car. But the good news on that front is that I saw a news piece the other day about this piece that you connec to your cars exhaust system or something and it causes your car to emit less emissions and polutants than a lighter!!!!!!!!!!!!! The item is expensive - it costs like $1500 or sonmething, but I dont care. The second that I save enouygh money I am buying it. It is one thing to be selfish and want to drive a car, but it is another to refuse a newly invented environment protecting device because it is too expensive. Frankly, I think it should be mandatory for all cars.

And there is my two cents for the night.

EDITTED TO ADD: Before I get any more hate mail from all you ova-lacto vegetarians, let me mke something perfectly clear. I am speaking about my OWN reasons for having taken so long to give up eggs and dairy. It is because what Jonathan says about vegetarians was true IN MY CASE. And it took a great deal of self-honesty for me to come to that conclusion. Of course, as a vegetarian, I did not want to admit this to myself and was annoyed by vegans who told me that I wasnt being "ethical enough." But now I see that they were right. It is just as hard to justify supporting the egg or dairy industries as it is to justify supporting the meat industry is the realization and the revelation that converted me from ova - lacto to strict vegetarian (or what some of you would call vegan).
Last edited by compassionategirl on Tue Jul 19, 2005 10:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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#24 Postby jonathan » Tue Jul 19, 2005 6:59 am

thankyou for that long and beautifully honest post compassionate girl.

i do not mean to reduce the value of vegetarianism as a short term transition state whilst people are going from meat eater to vegan - i was veggie for 10months (though it was nearly only 8months - but once i had decided to go vegan i went immediatly to nepal for 2months. i had no idea what i was doing so was veggie until i got back to the uk) before going vegan.
as you say, vegetarianism is simply not a morally justifiable permanent state. its almost like saying 'i boycott nestle coffee (called nescafe here) but am happy to buy other nestle products'. vegetarianism makes no sense and it is as illogical as the example above.

i wish you the best of luck with being vegan :D

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#25 Postby compassionategirl » Tue Jul 19, 2005 12:38 pm

jonathan wrote:thankyou for that long and beautifully honest post compassionate girl.

i do not mean to reduce the value of vegetarianism as a short term transition state whilst people are going from meat eater to vegan ... vegetarianism is simply not a morally justifiable permanent state. :D



I agree J (emphasis above my own). :D

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#26 Postby Gym hater » Sun Jul 24, 2005 10:32 am

If vegetarianism is accaptable for a short period of time, every vegetarian is doing the right thing. This is becouse life is just a short period of time:) and I don't think there will be any animal consumption once someone has passed away. But you have to make sure that there is no leather inside your coffin, and in you clothes. It would be a shame having been vegan most of your life, and then being burried with leather shoes on:(

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#27 Postby jonathan » Sun Jul 24, 2005 1:04 pm

i disagree. i define a short time as a matter of a few months or at most a year or two. beyond that there is no excuse. if you define your life as a short time then for all your existence you have inflicted unnecessary harm.

go vegan

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