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 Post subject: Athlete says sports steroids changed him from woman to man
PostPosted: Tue Aug 12, 2008 8:19 am 
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Stegosaurus
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Athlete says sports steroids changed him from woman to man
http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/europe/08 ... topstories


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BERLIN, Germany (CNN) -- Heidi Krieger proved herself one of the world's top athletes in the 1980s, winning medal after medal in the shot put for East Germany.
Andreas Krieger says his body changed soon after he began taking what coaches said were vitamins.

Andreas Krieger says his body changed soon after he began taking what coaches said were vitamins.

Now, the former sports star looks disdainfully at the awards, dismissing them as "doping medals" and honors that turned a woman into a man.

Heidi Krieger, the 1986 European women's shot-put champion, became Andreas Krieger after a sex-change operation in 1997. He says he had been fed so many steroids by his coaches without his knowledge that physical and emotional problems began.

The young woman's physique changed drastically, as did her feelings. "I felt much more attracted to women and just felt like a man. But I knew I was not lesbian," Krieger told CNN.

Her coaches said they were giving her vitamin pills, but they were actually feeding her Oral-Turinabol anabolic steroids. Video Watch how Krieger's body changed »

Krieger is among an estimated 10,000 East German athletes thought to have been given performance-enhancing drugs to help build their country into a sports powerhouse.

In the 1970s and 1980s, the German Democratic Republic was one of the most successful Olympic Games nations. But after the fall of Soviet Communism, it was revealed just how much steroids were fueling the medal machine. Sports leaders, including Manfred Ewald, the head of East Germany's National Olympic Committee from 1973 until 1990, were convicted in the doping programs.

Krieger, who is now married and runs an army surplus store, says he has taken his life into his own hands and does not want to be seen as a victim.

But he and other former East German athletes tricked by their coaches are worried that too little has been learned from their plight.

Doping remains a major issue in sports, and many drug tests will be conducted in Beijing, China, as officials try to catch any cheats hoping to go undetected and get Olympic glory.

Experts say the next step for sportsmen and women looking for an illegal boost to physical performance could be gene therapy -- so-called "gene doping."

Sports physician Willi Heepe said gene therapy means the body will basically dope itself.

If that happens, "the human monster will be a reality," he told CNN.
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Krieger is worried that the pressure to win could create new victims.

"If today's athletes say they want to take the risk, they really don't know what risk they are taking," he said.


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 Post subject: Re: Athlete says sports steroids changed him from woman to man
PostPosted: Tue Aug 12, 2008 9:44 pm 
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Why do people use sports drugs in the first place?! :evil:

I couldn't read the article but I got through what you quoted. It's impressive and sad at the same. I'm completely against performance enhancing drugs but as the last resort it's the athlete's choice whether to take them or not.
Those trainers should be taking really hard sanctions because of their actions. They chose for the athletes and it's a violation of their freedom as much as a deliberate harm to them.


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 Post subject: Re: Athlete says sports steroids changed him from woman to man
PostPosted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 7:13 am 
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Ya. Not sure about that one. The steriods that are used by those athletes would be different from those used for hormonal changes (like gender transitioning). It may have given some of the side-effects but made her a man? Unlikely.

And ya. They shouldn't be using it in the first place. I don't understand what's happened to the concept of "all things being equal, let's see who's the best".


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 Post subject: Re: Athlete says sports steroids changed him from woman to man
PostPosted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 10:01 am 
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Lena01 wrote:
I couldn't read the article but I got through what you quoted.


The full article is quoted above and the link works fine.

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 Post subject: Re: Athlete says sports steroids changed him from woman to man
PostPosted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 10:08 am 
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SyrLinus wrote:
Ya. Not sure about that one. The steriods that are used by those athletes would be different from those used for hormonal changes (like gender transitioning). It may have given some of the side-effects but made her a man? Unlikely.

And ya. They shouldn't be using it in the first place. I don't understand what's happened to the concept of "all things being equal, let's see who's the best".


All of that happened a while back and in a totalitarian country. The steroids might have been different, stronger and in higher doses.

I scratched my head too.

I wonder if he might not have been transgender anyway and just not have known it. People are strongly attached to their gender, so I found it odd that his reasoning seemed to be "oh well, I wasn't planning on it, but since I'm most of the way there anyway, I might as well be a man".

I have an old m->f friend who impressed on me that sexual identity can often be distinct from sexual orientation as well. Testosterone drives sexual desire for both of the sexes and is used as therapy for low sex drive straight women. Pumping up T levels doesn't seem to be able to change a person's sexual orientation. Who knows, maybe past a certain level up or down it may allow something hidden to come out.

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 Post subject: Re: Athlete says sports steroids changed him from woman to man
PostPosted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 2:12 pm 
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beforewisdom wrote:

All of that happened a while back and in a totalitarian country. The steroids might have been different, stronger and in higher doses.

I scratched my head too.

I wonder if he might not have been transgender anyway and just not have known it. People are strongly attached to their gender, so I found it odd that his reasoning seemed to be "oh well, I wasn't planning on it, but since I'm most of the way there anyway, I might as well be a man".

I have an old m->f friend who impressed on me that sexual identity can often be distinct from sexual orientation as well. Testosterone drives sexual desire for both of the sexes and is used as therapy for low sex drive straight women. Pumping up T levels doesn't seem to be able to change a person's sexual orientation. Who knows, maybe past a certain level up or down it may allow something hidden to come out.


Yup. Sexual orientation would refer to who (gender-wise) you are attracted to. Sexual identity refers to the self's view of one's own gender/sex. Very distinct.

Now, I have heard people say that "T has made me gay" (one FTM friend even suggested that it made him vegetarian but somehow I doubt that one :P ). I think it may heighten our awareness or sensitivity to certain pheromones. Additionally, I think the modern transitioning process also opens ups even more gender possibilities and the reality that the simple binary doesn't have to apply. Sometimes it's the fact that there is so much variety that it opens things up.

Lastly, in the case of Andreas, I wonder if his wife is/was lesbian/queer. Someone from a queer background may be far more accepting at having a trans-guy for a husband than someone who is straight. Many of the FTMs I know of seem to date other FTMs (shared experience).

As for the hormones in question, I did a search. These ones are the ones banned from the US and from further reading it appears that the dosages were very high. I think the side effects, many of which are irreversible (e.g., facial hair, deeping of voice, etc.), may have convinced Andreas that he is a guy and he may have found that he wasn't accepted as a woman because of mainstream's ideals as to what a woman is and isn't.


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 Post subject: Re: Athlete says sports steroids changed him from woman to man
PostPosted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 2:53 pm 
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Yeah I don't believe it either. In the before pic she was already looking pretty butch.
The thing with steroids is you gotta worry about the long term affects.. Brittle bones.. Kidney and liver problems.. Cancer... heart disease.

I watched a show about steroids and there were guys in their early 40s suffering major heart attacks from using steroids in their 20s.


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 Post subject: Re: Athlete says sports steroids changed him from woman to man
PostPosted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 2:56 pm 
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Marcina wrote:
Yeah I don't believe it either. In the before pic she was already looking pretty butch.
The thing with steroids is you gotta worry about the long term affects.. Brittle bones.. Kidney and liver problems.. Cancer... heart disease.

I watched a show about steroids and there were guys in their early 40s suffering major heart attacks from using steroids in their 20s.


Not to mention that it shrivels your cahones up.

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 Post subject: Re: Athlete says sports steroids changed him from woman to man
PostPosted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 4:15 pm 
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SyrLinus wrote:
I don't understand what's happened to the concept of "all things being equal, let's see who's the best".


Sadly, those days are gone and will probably never be back again.

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 Post subject: Re: Athlete says sports steroids changed him from woman to man
PostPosted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 7:06 pm 
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Were they ever here? It seems like people looking to win at all costs/cheat have always been around.....luckily so have the good sports[wo]men.

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 Post subject: Re: Athlete says sports steroids changed him from woman to man
PostPosted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 8:28 pm 
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beforewisdom wrote:
The full article is quoted above and the link works fine.

It's just that my Internet here doesn't work very well now.


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 Post subject: Re: Athlete says sports steroids changed him from woman to man
PostPosted: Tue Aug 19, 2008 12:13 pm 
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Some soy protein should reverse the process. :twisted:

On a more serious note, I'm curious how the brain is transformed in cases like this, or cases where you hear about "a man born a woman" or the opposite. The structure of the brain is different between (clearly defined) males and females. I believe this difference is triggered by hormone levels of the developing fetus, in the same way the sex organs decide what to make themselves.

Basically I'm curious if gender identity is as simple as on-going hormone balances, or if there are detectible structural differences.

Despite my soy comment, I do feel sorry for this person. If he/she was truly ignorant of what these "vitamins" were it's a pretty horrible situation.

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 Post subject: Re: Athlete says sports steroids changed him from woman to man
PostPosted: Tue Aug 19, 2008 12:23 pm 
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chrisjs wrote:
Some soy protein should reverse the process. :twisted:

On a more serious note, I'm curious how the brain is transformed in cases like this, or cases where you hear about "a man born a woman" or the opposite. The structure of the brain is different between (clearly defined) males and females. I believe this difference is triggered by hormone levels of the developing fetus, in the same way the sex organs decide what to make themselves.

Basically I'm curious if gender identity is as simple as on-going hormone balances, or if there are detectible structural differences.

Despite my soy comment, I do feel sorry for this person. If he/she was truly ignorant of what these "vitamins" were it's a pretty horrible situation.


Well, there is likely a combination of different brain chemicals that make a person like this. Some may be tied to environmental factors. They have said that often the patterns of a transgendered person appears to be that of the sex of choice rather than of birth ( MtF have Female Neuron Numbers paper -- http://jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/content/full/85/5/2034). That said, gender identity is also influence by society and how society views that person (contrary to belief, society does judge a book by it's cover).


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 Post subject: Re: Athlete says sports steroids changed him from woman to man
PostPosted: Tue Aug 19, 2008 12:48 pm 
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SyrLinus wrote:
Ya. Not sure about that one. The steriods that are used by those athletes would be different from those used for hormonal changes (like gender transitioning). It may have given some of the side-effects but made her a man? Unlikely.


Actually, the oldest-school anabolic steroids are testosterones and testosterone derivatives. They're androgens (masculinizing hormones). And the East Germans and Soviets were infamous for having used these on their athletes. Many of the women were given them from a young age (in their early teens). Hopping a woman up on testosterones during puberty is a very dangerous thing to do. A lot of these women never got their periods, and you could tell by their frame/bone structure that they essentially went through male puberty because of what they were given.

The reason she looks so butch as a woman is probably because she had been on those steroids during puberty. When you go through your growth spurt under what is essentially a "hormonally male" condition, your bone structure grows as it would in a teenage male - the broader, squarer shoulders, the narrower hips, the larger upper body muscles.

Now, on the subject of gender identity and sexual preference - that's really more complex. However, if these athletes were given steroids as children or teenagers, when the brain is still developing, one thing is certain - it would have affected brain development (since sex steroids do that). Whether those effects would have a role in these complicated gender identity/sexual orientation matters is completely debatable, though. I'm not certain what research has been done on that type of situation (born female, but given testosterone during puberty).

Psychologically, I imagine that the masculinized frame, and lack of breast development and periods would certainly affect a woman's body image. But I'm not saying it's as simple as looking in the mirror and saying "I look like a man. I guess I'm attracted to women now" :P


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 Post subject: Re: Athlete says sports steroids changed him from woman to man
PostPosted: Tue Aug 19, 2008 1:39 pm 
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SyrLinus wrote:
MtF have Female Neuron Numbers paper -- http://jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/content/full/85/5/2034

Yes, thanks for the link. That's exactly what I was referring to.

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