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 Post subject: I have a BIG problem. rugby/getting big/and sorta marathons.
PostPosted: Fri Feb 26, 2010 9:07 pm 
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Gorilla
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So, I'll try to make this brief, since I tend to get long winded.

I am eating a lot in order to bulk for rugby. I am also training to be fast and explosive. I'm quick and nimble for a 6 footer, but I'm small. I've done a lot to bulk up in the last two months since I started trying, but my big mouth and desire to do awesome things has me in a bit of a pickle.

I am also signed up to do the MC200, which is a 200 mile run from Madison to Chicago. Don't worry, it's a relay. That'll have me running 38.75 miles in about 24 or so hours. 8 miles, break for a few hours, 4 miles, break, 6 miles, break, you get the idea. 6 legs. BUT, that means I need to train some distance (even if it is short distance x reps...)

So, is a day or two of running (6-10 miles) going to be enough? Once it gets nice out I'll start running to work and then home (4 miles each way) which will give me the two a days I'll need to be able to run the intervals needed for the relay.

But I dont want to lose mass or explosiveness in my running. If I just up the food (again) and train all 3 things over the course of the week, Ill be straight, right? I currently do 3x week lifting 2x week running intervals/plyo/etc (typical rugby practice) and will do a day or two of long runs.

Is that all sorts of wrong?

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 Post subject: Re: I have a BIG problem. rugby/getting big/and sorta marathons.
PostPosted: Sat Mar 13, 2010 10:42 am 
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Rabbit
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Hi Jason,

I've run 3 marathons and used to be a personal trainer, so I think I can help :)

I'm assuming this will be the first endurance run you've ever done.

It IS possible to train for both, as long as you're okay with only really being good at one - and it sounds like your priority is rugby. And in fact, your plyo & interval runs WILL help you with running economy for the distance event.

I would do ONE long run per week, and have the other running day be mid-length. I would also add a 3rd running day for a short run. Consistency is just as important as distance. For all 3 of those runs, go SLOWER than the pace you plan to run the actual event. You're already training for speed - these days are for building endurance. If you go too fast and your heart rate is too high, you will actually hurt your endurance training.

I don't know how much time you have until the event, or how far your longest run has been up until now, so here's a general plan...

- When both cardio & strength occur on the same day, do cardio FIRST)
- Regarding runs, never do 2 hard days in a row. Hard = distance or speed. The plan below is hard-easy-hard-easy-hard-easy-off:

SATURDAY - LONG RUN
SUNDAY - Short & Easy recovery run + Strength [or make-up long run if Sat weather is bad, etc. If today ends up being your long run, skip tomorrow's intervals and do a short run instead, then continue with the rest of the week as planned. NEVER try to "make up" missed workouts.]
MONDAY - Intervals/plyo
TUESDAY - Mid-length run + Strength
WEDNESDAY - Intervals/plyo
THURSDAY - Short run + Strength
FRIDAY - OFF

For the long runs, you'll want to increase the distance by approximately 10%/week. For example:
Week 1 - 5 miles
2 - 6 miles
3 - 7 miles
4 - 8 miles
5 - 9 miles
6 - 10miles
7 - 6 miles
8 - 12 miles
9 - 10 miles
10 - 14 miles
11 - 10 miles
12 - 16 miles
13 - 10 miles
14 - 18 miles
15 - 10 miles
16 - 20 miles
17 - 10 miles
18 - 20 miles
19 - 10 miles
20 - 22 miles
21 - 10 miles
22 - 22 miles
23 - 10 miles
24 - 8 miles
25 - 6 miles
26 - 6 miles

This is the most conservative (read: injury-preventing) plan. If you have less time than that, it would look more like this:

Week 1 - 5 miles
2 - 6 miles
3 - 7 miles
4 - 8 miles
5 - 9 miles
6 - 10miles
7 - 12 miles
8 - 10 miles
9 - 14 miles
10 - 16 miles
11 - 18 miles
12 - 20 miles
13 - 10 miles
14 - 6 miles


If you have even LESS time than that, do not alter the schedule, but stop building distance sooner so you max out at 18 or 16 instead. It is safer to do one very long run on less training, than it is to train at too high a level and then run a significant distance.

In the last 2-4 weeks leading up to the event, drop back on distance, and cut out ALL strength and speed work. Preferably, the taper would be 4 weeks, but 2 weeks is the minimum. This is the time when your body not only heals from all the training, but actually continues to get stronger as it heals. DO NOT SKIP THE TAPER PERIOD. YOU RISK INJURY IF YOU DO!


Good luck, and feel free to ask me more questions as you go!

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 Post subject: Re: I have a BIG problem. rugby/getting big/and sorta marathons.
PostPosted: Sun Mar 14, 2010 1:43 pm 
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Gorilla
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WOW! thanks for the in depth reply, but I should have clarified. It isn't a marathon. It's a relay ultra race. From Madison to Chicago. It'll have me running 6 intervals of 4-7 miles a piece over the course of 30 or so hours. It works out to 37.75 miles over the whole race, but it's a "run an hour, take 3 hours off, run 35 minutes, take 4 hours off", etc. So, I think the shorter (under 10 miles, definitely) runs with more frequency is going to be the way to tackle this. not getting stiff, and eating enough are going to be the hard parts, definitely.

The big issue is that I have a 3 day rugby tournament the weekend after, which I kinda need to be in good shape for. SO, it's all too much to ask of myself, but I'll work it out and be fine.

thanks for the plan, and I'll be sure to ask questions as they arise. Oh, it's 3 months away, by the way.

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 Post subject: Re: I have a BIG problem. rugby/getting big/and sorta marathons.
PostPosted: Sun Mar 14, 2010 2:04 pm 
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Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2007 12:48 pm
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Location: Stockholm, Sweden.
Jason X wrote:
If I just up the food (again) and train all 3 things over the course of the week, Ill be straight, right?


I'm not sure what you mean by "straight" but there are complications regarding the combination of endruance training and muscle strenght/volume. Trying to put it simply mammalian target of rapamycin (mTOR) regulates your muscles adjustment to strenght training meaning that heavy ass training results in translation of mTOR. When you do endurance training the different metabolism that is demanded results in activation of AMP-activated protein kinase (AMPK). So far this isn't a problem right? Wrong. AMPK effects a substrate called TSC1/2 which in turn has a negative influence on mTOR (and your protein synthesis). Allthough there probably are ways to minimize the "damage" simply increasing your food intake won't cut it.

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When someone says you don't train "functionally," you should just punch them in the face. Ask them how "functional" of a movement that was.


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 Post subject: Re: I have a BIG problem. rugby/getting big/and sorta marathons.
PostPosted: Sun Mar 14, 2010 2:26 pm 
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Gorilla
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xjohanx wrote:
Jason X wrote:
If I just up the food (again) and train all 3 things over the course of the week, Ill be straight, right?


I'm not sure what you mean by "straight" but there are complications regarding the combination of endruance training and muscle strenght/volume. Trying to put it simply mammalian target of rapamycin (mTOR) regulates your muscles adjustment to strenght training meaning that heavy ass training results in translation of mTOR. When you do endurance training the different metabolism that is demanded results in activation of AMP-activated protein kinase (AMPK). So far this isn't a problem right? Wrong. AMPK effects a substrate called TSC1/2 which in turn has a negative influence on mTOR (and your protein synthesis). Allthough there probably are ways to minimize the "damage" simply increasing your food intake won't cut it.



uhhh. words.

sorry dude. that is entirely over my head. I'll keep doing what I've been doing. It seems to be working.

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 Post subject: Re: I have a BIG problem. rugby/getting big/and sorta marathons.
PostPosted: Sun Mar 14, 2010 3:04 pm 
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Elephant

Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2007 12:48 pm
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Location: Stockholm, Sweden.
Jason X wrote:
I'll keep doing what I've been doing. It seems to be working.


If it's working, why even ask about it?

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cubby2112 wrote:
When someone says you don't train "functionally," you should just punch them in the face. Ask them how "functional" of a movement that was.


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 Post subject: Re: I have a BIG problem. rugby/getting big/and sorta marathons.
PostPosted: Sun Mar 14, 2010 4:33 pm 
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Rabbit
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Location: Alexandria, VA
For soreness/stiffness, obviously you need your electrolytes and protein, but I STRONGLY recommend black cherry juice - it is a natural anti-inflammatory. It definitely works for me.

A glass a day should do it, or I think it's actually cheaper to buy it concentrated and mix it with water or seltzer.

Or vodka :mrgreen:

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 Post subject: Re: I have a BIG problem. rugby/getting big/and sorta marathons.
PostPosted: Sun Mar 14, 2010 5:15 pm 
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hey jason

i follow both crossfit and crossfit endurance. Their recommended program is to follow crossfit workouts 4 - 6 times a week and then do crossfit endurance workouts 2- 3 times a week. based on how your recover. So you can totally do it. good luck!

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 Post subject: Re: I have a BIG problem. rugby/getting big/and sorta marathons.
PostPosted: Sun Mar 14, 2010 8:36 pm 
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Gorilla
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xjohanx wrote:
Jason X wrote:
I'll keep doing what I've been doing. It seems to be working.


If it's working, why even ask about it?



the original post is a few weeks old, johan.

Ellie, I will look into this black cherry juice concentrate!

and Mary, I'm not very familiar with crossfit, but as I understand it, it's more of a circuit training. My interest is piqued. I'll see what I can find about it.

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 Post subject: Re: I have a BIG problem. rugby/getting big/and sorta marathons.
PostPosted: Mon Mar 15, 2010 12:36 pm 
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it's not circuit training. it is a strength and condition program using functional movements.

www.crossfit.com
www.crossfitendurance.com

I am a trainer for crossfit and going to get my endurance certification next weekend.

any questions please ask im always willing to help! :D

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 Post subject: Re: I have a BIG problem. rugby/getting big/and sorta marathons.
PostPosted: Mon Mar 15, 2010 12:42 pm 
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Elephant

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Location: Stockholm, Sweden.
MaryStella wrote:
functional movements


...

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cubby2112 wrote:
When someone says you don't train "functionally," you should just punch them in the face. Ask them how "functional" of a movement that was.


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 Post subject: Re: I have a BIG problem. rugby/getting big/and sorta marathons.
PostPosted: Mon Mar 15, 2010 1:50 pm 
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Elephant
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xjohanx wrote:
MaryStella wrote:
functional movements


...


Lol

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 Post subject: Re: I have a BIG problem. rugby/getting big/and sorta marathons.
PostPosted: Mon Mar 15, 2010 2:42 pm 
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Rabbit
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Geeze, I joined this forum because it was less hate-filled than other vegan groups/forums.

I'm starting to reconsider that decision.

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 Post subject: Re: I have a BIG problem. rugby/getting big/and sorta marathons.
PostPosted: Mon Mar 15, 2010 5:08 pm 
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Gorilla
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Ellie Moondog wrote:
Geeze, I joined this forum because it was less hate-filled than other vegan groups/forums.

I'm starting to reconsider that decision.



ellie, it's not all haters. we usually get along. seems like only a couple people stir the pot. and they make themselves known pretty quickly.

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 Post subject: Re: I have a BIG problem. rugby/getting big/and sorta marathons.
PostPosted: Tue Mar 16, 2010 1:27 am 
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Elephant

Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2007 12:48 pm
Posts: 2960
Location: Stockholm, Sweden.
Ellie Moondog wrote:
Geeze, I joined this forum because it was less hate-filled than other vegan groups/forums.

I'm starting to reconsider that decision.


:popcorn: Big decision to make, life-changing stuff, maybe you should have thought about it longer? I mean seriously, now you sit here with a username on a forum that is more hate-filled than other vegan groups/forum, big stuff.

BTW, people throw around the word "hate" way too much. I see no hating anywhere in this thread. The functional movement thing is a joke on the cost of people like this

Image

and others who use the word way too much.
It really has nothing to do with hate and how you confuse the two is beyond me.

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cubby2112 wrote:
When someone says you don't train "functionally," you should just punch them in the face. Ask them how "functional" of a movement that was.


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