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PostPosted: Thu Jun 22, 2006 1:47 am 
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You can buy grenades???? I think I'd prefer to host you guys in Vancouver rather than come to Portland :shock:

Scroll down on this page a bit to see the table, correlating gun control/ownership/resctriction percentages of nations to gun related deaths:

http://www.guncontrol.ca/Content/intern ... tml#access

I respect others rights to have their own opinions, but I can't say I agree with them!

If guns = Peace, than nukes must = heavenly bliss. So we should allow all nations to have nukes in order to promote a peaceful planet. In fact, everyone should have a nuke at home, just in case they felt threatened by a neighbouring country someday, they could quickly kill them off and maintain peace. :roll:


Last edited by veganmonk on Thu Jun 22, 2006 1:52 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 22, 2006 1:52 am 
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veganmonk wrote:
You can buy grenades???? I think I'd prefer to host you guys in Vancouver rather than come to Portland :shock:

Scroll down on this page a bit to see the table, correlating gun control/ownership/resctriction percentages of nations to gun related deaths:

http://www.guncontrol.ca/Content/intern ... tml#access

I respect others rights to have their own opinions, but I can't say I agree with them!

If guns = Peace, than nukes must = heavenly bliss. So we should allow all nations to have nukes in order to promote a peaceful planet. In fact, everyone should have a nuke at home, just in case they felt threatened by a neighbouring country someday, they could quickly kill them off and maintain peace. :roll:



you keep ignoring my points. But whatever

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 22, 2006 2:03 am 
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VM,
No one said that "guns = Peace". What is obvious is that having folks owning them for personal defense and/or sport does not = more violence.
And you Canadians can and do own plenty of guns, etc. As an example, here's a local (for you) Van. City gunshop: http://www.leverarms.com
Amazingly most folks here seem to do just fine. You wont likely see guns here (excluding cops & the like) unless you want to. But if you host a meet-up in Vancouver I'd love to come up! Maybe we can even go out shooting together! Did I mention that Canada's gun laws are LESS restrictive than those of the US about folks from other countries owning and/or useing guns? :D


Last edited by loveliberate on Thu Jun 22, 2006 2:15 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 22, 2006 2:11 am 
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Canada sucks! But I've never met anyone that owned a gun, and our annual deaths by guns pale in comparison to the states, even if you factor in the population difference. All I can think of is all of our guns belong to hunters/sport, and there are no home owners buying them for defense.

I had no idea our regulations were less strict, but that would explain our rise in gun crime I suppose :(

xdarthveganx, didn't mean to ignore, I didn't notice all the posting going on. I agree with your points on the societal problems being a factor for sure. I think fear is one of the biggest issues, and people in the US are pumped way too much full of fear. I do however think that making things illegal, makes them less obtainable, thus reducing the overall problem, but agree, that it would never stop smuggling of a product that is still manufactured outside the nation that banned it. The world needs global government cooperation to deal with large scale issues like gun control.

Have either of you watched bowling for columbine?


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 22, 2006 2:30 am 
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veganmonk wrote:
Canada sucks! But I've never met anyone that owned a gun, and our annual deaths by guns pale in comparison to the states, even if you factor in the population difference. All I can think of is all of our guns belong to hunters/sport, and there are no home owners buying them for defense.

I had no idea our regulations were less strict, but that would explain our rise in gun crime I suppose :(

xdarthveganx, didn't mean to ignore, I didn't notice all the posting going on. I agree with your points on the societal problems being a factor for sure. I think fear is one of the biggest issues, and people in the US are pumped way too much full of fear. I do however think that making things illegal, makes them less obtainable, thus reducing the overall problem, but agree, that it would never stop smuggling of a product that is still manufactured outside the nation that banned it. The world needs global government cooperation to deal with large scale issues like gun control.

Have either of you watched bowling for columbine?


yes. I think Michael Moore made it perfectly clear in that movie that gun crime is not related to gun ownership. So given your point, then alcohol consumption during the prohibition should have fallen but it didnt, it actually rose. Also the united states has one of the highest drug use rates in the world, and the netherlands where drugs are legal has some of the lowest. A world ban on guns, will never happen and that is exactly WHY i am a gun owner. As long as governments have guns, so will I.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 22, 2006 2:36 am 
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Amigo,

Hey, I like Canada! :D

You are trying to make the facts fit your preconcieved ideas. Violence, including with firearms, in Canada has risen as the gun laws in both the US & CA have grown more restrictive. You probably have met lots of gunowners (besides me!) but they choose to be quiet on the issue - as do many/most gunowners here.

Plenty of folks in Canada do buy/own guns for self-defense but they are not going to say so. In Canada, you are not legally allowed to possess ANYTHING whatsoever for the purpose of defending yourself against a human....

Canada's gun laws are less restrictive in that they apply to everyone equally regardless of what country a person is from. Canada also allow people to own handguns - unlike some of the most violent places in the US, such as Chicago & DC...

I've watched "Bowling for Columbine". Michael Moore is a lying hypocrite!

Did you know that his ARMED WITH A PISTOL bodyguard was busted for violating gun laws? :lol:

Michael Moore bodyguard arrested on gun charge at JFK
THE ASSOCIATED PRESS

A bodyguard who has protected outspoken moviemaker and gun-control advocate Michael Moore was arrested at Kennedy International Airport for allegedly carrying a pistol without a New York license, authorities said Thursday.

http://www.nydailynews.com/front/breaki ... 3940c.html

But I guess that Moore's life and the lives of the rich and famous are more valuable than my own or those of my family?


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 22, 2006 2:41 am 
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maybe you guys and I saw a different movie but I didnt really see a direct correlation between gun ownership and gun crime in bowling for columbine. Sure it might have been implied somewhat, but I do not think it was the main point being made. I do however see charelston hestons comments about racial groups as one of the most telling causes of gun crimes. The racial undertones that define america and american policy I believe are the number one cause of these problems. So next we make guns illegal then what? the only ones wh o have guns are the police, the military and the FBI fuck that!

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 22, 2006 7:18 am 
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Bowling for columbine's point was about ease of accessibility to guns and bullets. One of the major victories was getting a local store to stop selling bullets.

Also shown where many protests against guns by the people of the US, and how they are battling against the gun advocates.

I think it was clear that they were showing how ease of access to weapons in a nation, directly correlates to deaths.

That's a great point about the drugs and it's usage in the US despite being illegal. This is however, in my opinion, a lack of funding into enforcing laws and properly supporting the police system. If they had enough funding, manpower, and authority, perhaps they could do a better job of cleaning up the streets and catching those responsible. I think if the US spent a fraction of what it does on its military and initiatives taking over other nations and supporting capitalist business growth, on social programs, education, safety laws, and law enforcement, (and hell making veganism a required way of life :lol: ), surely things would be better.

I know that the majority of people in the US (such as yourselves), disagree with me, and believe that having a gun makes you safe. However, I personally think it just makes everyone value human life less, and also makes each of you capable of taking another huamn life much more easily, and even with rights that I believe are very immoral, such as being able to kill someone on your property. I believe there have been many of these issues on the states (at least that is what our news portrays), and a friend of mine told me his father once pulled over in front of someone's house to read a map because he was lost, and the owner came out with a shotgun, pointed it through the window at his head, and said "get off my property". This cowbow shoot-em up mentality is so primative! And besides, if someone ever wanted to kill you, they could, and your gun would more than likely not even be anywhere near you. When you are out walking or in public, someone can just shoot you dead. What good is your gun? Only if you have heads-up warning and you are in your house or close to wherever your gun is, and what if it is a false alarm, fear when there shouldn't be, for example what if a man is running away from someone who is trying to kill him and runs to your house for help but doesn't speak english or is so in shock all he can do is bang on your door and you get scared and kill him? What if teens have anger and want to kill someone and take their family gun? These things are happening in the US, and not in much else of the world, at least on a far less regular occurence. I believe the link to the stats I sent that showed gun owernship relation to death by guns, is a very relevant statistic on how this all works.

This is just my opinion and those who are against gun ownership, and seems to be proven by the statistics.

And as far as the government having guns so people should have them, again, they have much much more than that nowadays, guns would do nothing. Should we each have a tank, a plane, machine guns, bombs? Where do you draw the line to "rise-up" against your government?


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 22, 2006 1:43 pm 
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VM...you think vegans should not carry guns??? As I look around at my famlily, and know what I go through every night at work, not knowing if I will come home to my family....whew...I better not get started....n/m...I do respect your view...although I do not agree...


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 22, 2006 4:01 pm 
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veganmonk wrote:
I think it was clear that they were showing how ease of access to weapons in a nation, directly correlates to deaths.

Really? I did not get that at all from the movie and I have not seen any "proof" that this is true elsewhere.

I have no desire to see more police on the streets or to see this or any other government have any more power. More police and laws are also not the solution. Prisons are some of the most heavily policed and controlled places on the planet, yet violence and crime still occurs in prisons.

By the way, why do you continue to only focus on the US? Many other countries have high gun ownership rates and people around the world affirm their human right to defend themselves as they choose - Canada being an example of both.

Why would a person not have a gun with them? They should! In all but 2 of US states, it is now legal for a person to carry a concealed pistol and hundreds of thousands of people do. As for when it is appropriate to use a gun, there are clear ethical and legal guidelines about this that cover almost all situations. Even in Canada, where you can not legally possess anything for the sole purpose of defending yourself, you CAN use a gun to defend yourself under certain circumstances. For that matter, there are laws on the books up there to "allow" people to get a permit to carry a concealed pistol.

If the stats you shared are accurate, and I am not convinced that they are, they prove little. If guns are more available, they *may* be a more common tool used to cause deaths. A more relevant question would look at the total number of deaths and violence by any means, societal and other influences, etc.

Beyond all of this, the fact remains that the vast majority of folks who own guns for self-defense or sport never misuse their guns. It is entirely unfair to criminalize us. As has been pointed out, prohibition is not an effective tactic and generally leads to increased violence and crime.
More police and laws are also not the solution.


"This is just my opinion and those who are against gun ownership, and seems to be proven by the statistics." At least we agree that this is just your opinion! :wink:

Personally, I would like to see all armies and police forces abolished and the sooner the better. Having civilian based militia's is a preferable alternative for defense for now and changing the economic, social and political causes of violence and war is the overall solution, in my opinion.

As for whether or not an armed people is a threat to an unjust government - I think the facts speak for themselves: Most tyrants and oppressors of any sort prefer unarmed victims! Many, if not most, gun laws have come as a direct result of governments wanting to be able to more effectively control and/or murder off dissidents or other
"undesireables".

A "just government" would certainly have no reason to disarm the population and nothing to fear from their being armed!


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 22, 2006 9:25 pm 
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I just believe the mentality of having a gun, is anti peaceful and doesn't come across as something "vegan".

For sure at least you must be against guns/weapons sold for hunting/sport, being a vegan.

The goal of a vegan is respect for all life, and the ideal is that all guns should be abolished.

I have never had a gun, and never will buy a gun, and I'm probably much less scared than any average american is of any serious crime ever happening to me. Why? Because guns are simply not around that much, and it is not a frequent occurence for people to be killed by guns here.

I don't meant to say the states is the only country with gun issues, Africa is definitely another one. I just hear a lot more about the US gun related issues because I'm in a neighbouring country, so our news and media covers a lot of US related issues. I suppose it is also because I was trying to find out if Lib was pro-guns, since he's in the US, and most people in the US are, but I feel it is an anti-vegan mentality to possess a gun (just my opinion). Neither of you need to justify yours! I'm not trying to attack or get into a debate, as none of us would ever budge (I'm completely against guns, and you guys are completely for it - so there is no point in discussing it really). Anyway, we have totally taken this thread off topic!


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 22, 2006 10:18 pm 
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veganmonk wrote:
I just believe the mentality of having a gun, is anti peaceful and doesn't come across as something "vegan".

For sure at least you must be against guns/weapons sold for hunting/sport, being a vegan.

The goal of a vegan is respect for all life, and the ideal is that all guns should be abolished.

I have never had a gun, and never will buy a gun, and I'm probably much less scared than any average american is of any serious crime ever happening to me. Why? Because guns are simply not around that much, and it is not a frequent occurence for people to be killed by guns here.

I don't meant to say the states is the only country with gun issues, Africa is definitely another one. I just hear a lot more about the US gun related issues because I'm in a neighbouring country, so our news and media covers a lot of US related issues. I suppose it is also because I was trying to find out if Lib was pro-guns, since he's in the US, and most people in the US are, but I feel it is an anti-vegan mentality to possess a gun (just my opinion). Neither of you need to justify yours! I'm not trying to attack or get into a debate, as none of us would ever budge (I'm completely against guns, and you guys are completely for it - so there is no point in discussing it really). Anyway, we have totally taken this thread off topic!



Since when is being vegan about respecting all life? Last I checked being vegan was about not eating animals. That being said I am all for animal earth and human liberation. However at the same time, I believe life as precious as it is should be protected by any means nessecary! Once again do you believe that war and violence is never nessecary? I bring up my WWII analogy once again, do you not believe violence was nessecary to end the holocaust? Violence as I said before is most def. not a positive thing, however sometimes violence against violence is the only solution.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 22, 2006 10:57 pm 
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WHOA!!!!!! Seems to me someones been listenin' to a little too much Ted Nugent....The 2nd Amendment has NOTHING TO DO WITH RISING UP AGAINST THR GOVERNMENT!!!!!! By the way, that's called treason and its a death penalty offense! You need to read the whole thing...it starts with " A well regulated militia being necessary..." Back in those days you had to bring your own gun for your militia service, that's what that is all about!!! If that was true, why did Big George Washington personally lead 15,000 militia troops out of Philadelphia to crush the Whiskey Rebellion? They were Pennsylvania farmers who felt the govt. was acting unjustly and outside their authority. Think on a practical level, who in their right mind would say, "Hey guys, if I ever do something you don't like, feel free to shoot me in the face" These same founding fathers' refered to the American public as "the Great Beast"-(A. Hamilton)...John Locke...who they admired, also advocated the enslaving of poor white people ....Elbridge Gerry said the nations problems "flowed from an excess of democracy"...These guys trusted the average citizen so much that...
1) only wealthy property owners could vote till about the time of Jackson...
2) only office elected was the House of Reps...Pres. chosen by the electoral college...judges appointed and confirmed by Senate...and until 1920 the Senate was also appointed!!!! The H.O.R. which was the ONLY elected branch also serves the least time...2yrs...
3) Continental Army dissolved after the Revolution and it took an Act of Congress to create a full time military under J. Adams. in 1798! Prior to this it was militia and federalized militia that we relied on for defense...and the U.S. was NOT in the business of arms manufacturing!!!
4) J. Adams stated American people needed to "defer to their betters"
Now I like guns, I'm not anti-gun...but you should know better than to trust the logic of TED NUGENT!!! I know something about this period as I am studying to get a Ph.D. in early Am. history!!!! This isn't just my opinion, this is the stuff I have to read EVERYDAY!Please read THE WHOLE 2nd Amendment and use a little common sense!
As for it being a crazy world, yep it sure is...and innocent people get hurt all the time...but a little common sense prevention will keep you out of 99.9% of the trouble! And with a little training you can survive that tiny percentage left over!


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 23, 2006 12:05 am 
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hmm ted nugent is an idiot. I dont really see where specifically said that the 2nd amendment says any of those things you are saying I said.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 23, 2006 7:08 am 
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It applies to the post someone made about the 2nd Amendment providing for armed insurrestion against the govt. IT IS NOT!!!! I was merely providing evidence of the founding father's contempt for the average schmoe! In fact, there was at one time a law past that said what kind of guns you had to own for militia duty...
Just think about this: how's armed insurrection against the U.S. govt. going in Iraq and Afghanistan? And those guys have RPGs! Anybody who wants to try it, good luck with your WWII/Vietnam era SKS against state of the art US weaponry...let us know how that goes for you...assuming theres any pieces of you left. :oops:


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