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 Post subject: Fasting
PostPosted: Sun Nov 27, 2005 2:32 pm 
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Gorilla

Joined: Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm
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So I've spent about 15 hours researching fasting online these last few days and the result is that I've changed my opinion on it. Before I dismissed it as something religious nuts and health nuts did. And also classified it as a weight loss fad diet. Reading this book http://www.soilandhealth.org/02/0201hyg ... 27.ch1.htm is what primarily changed my mind. But along with this book I read most else online pro and con. There's a lot of religious stuff which asserts it's only use is to bring someone closer to god which I would guess causes a lot of people to dismiss fasting. Then a lot of antifasting propaganda which was addressed by Shelton 70 years ago.

Shelton's book was quite interesting. He advocates (careful) fasts of 7, 10, 20, 30 days and occasionally more. (Says don't eat until you find you are truly hungry again, whenever that is.)

So I'm going to fast for a while. Not for a month I don't think. I expect the long term result of this to be a weight gain. I did experiement with a periodic calorie restriction then bulk diet (14 days of each) and I surely gained weight/muscle on it. The problem is that forcing yourself to just eat a little and then stopping while you are still hungry, is not fun at all. To just totally not eat at all, is easier. And the evidence seems to strongly points to it actually being healthy or at the least when done intelligently, not unhealthy.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 27, 2005 4:34 pm 
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Rabbit
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I don't agree with fasting and this person pretty much summed up why on "The Vegan Forum". I couldn't have said it better myself.
:)

I need to add my 2 cents here. I don't believe in fasting or "detoxing" (unless it's a detox from drugs or alcohol) and will explain my reasons.

When you fast your body does not stop requiring protein. Your fat may be broken down into fuel but amino acids (the building blocks of protein) will come from the breakdown of muscle. That may be the muscle of your limbs, trunk or heart. This loss of muscle mass will result in a slowing of your metabolism. Therefore, unless you spend weeks to months regaining the muscle mass you lost on your fast, or you readjust your future caloric intake, you will most likely regain any weight you lost on the fast.

Regarding detox, if you are not eating toxic foods then I assume you are trying to get rid of the toxins in your fat stores. Your liver (and to some extent your kidneys and lungs) is the main detoxifying organ in your body. That is the #1 job of the liver. I would not think of stressing my liver by releasing the toxins in my fat stores in great amounts (ie, by fasting). Since you cannot pick which fat cells will shrink (the toxic fat cell vs. the healthy fat cell) and a zero % fat count = death, it appears that you cannot detox your body past a healthy fat ratio.

Please remember that your body does not stop requiring vitamins and minerals during a fast. What you are feeding yourself during a fast is your own "toxic" fat and your much needed muscle mass. Why anyone would want to do this to their body is beyond me.

I don't fast or "detox" but I do have a degree in biology, nursing and anesthesia. It is because of my knowledge of physiology that I feel compelled to give my opinion here. I hope that I haven't offended anyone. I am merely trying to add some balance to this discussion.

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 Post subject: Re: Fasting
PostPosted: Sun Nov 27, 2005 5:04 pm 
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Elephant
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Jay wrote:
Shelton's book was quite interesting. He advocates (careful) fasts of 7, 10, 20, 30 days and occasionally more. (Says don't eat until you find you are truly hungry again, whenever that is.

I'd be hungry again after a few hours! Forget 7 days or more!

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Nov 27, 2005 5:43 pm 
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Gorilla

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Location: West Virginia
VegHead wrote:
I don't agree with fasting and this person pretty much summed up why on "The Vegan Forum". I couldn't have said it better myself.
:)

[b][i]I need to add my 2 cents here. I don't believe in fasting or "detoxing" (unless it's a detox from drugs or alcohol) and will explain my reasons.

When you fast your body does not stop requiring protein. Your fat may be broken down into fuel but amino acids (the building blocks of protein) will come from the breakdown of muscle. That may be the muscle of your limbs, trunk or heart.

Yes, some muscle will be lost. But not from the heart (unless you go right up to the point where you have no fat left (starvation)). Studies have been conducted on what percentage of mass is lost from each of the body's systems. The heart does not lose anything. This is within Shelton's book.

Quote:
This loss of muscle mass will result in a slowing of your metabolism. Therefore, unless you spend weeks to months regaining the muscle mass you lost on your fast, or you readjust your future caloric intake, you will most likely regain any weight you lost on the fast.

Fasting shouldn't be done with the goal of permanent weight loss in mind. As I said I expect to gain weight. I know from past experience that muscle comes back very quick.

Quote:
Regarding detox, if you are not eating toxic foods then I assume you are trying to get rid of the toxins in your fat stores.

There are benefits beyond detox. Energy spent on digestion can instead be used on healing. Also studies now are finding periodic fasting can have the same effects as calorie restriction which increases the length of life. Personally I'm not really interested in "detoxing".

Quote:
Your liver (and to some extent your kidneys and lungs) is the main detoxifying organ in your body. That is the #1 job of the liver. I would not think of stressing my liver by releasing the toxins in my fat stores in great amounts (ie, by fasting).

Covered by Shelton. Simply the evidence shows that this isn't a problem.

Quote:
Since you cannot pick which fat cells will shrink (the toxic fat cell vs. the healthy fat cell) and a zero % fat count = death, it appears that you cannot detox your body past a healthy fat ratio.

OK, detox isn't the goal anyway. But it would appear if it was, that you would still be improving matters...? But really I couldn't care less about "detoxing".

Quote:
Please remember that your body does not stop requiring vitamins and minerals during a fast. What you are feeding yourself during a fast is your own "toxic" fat and your much needed muscle mass. Why anyone would want to do this to their body is beyond me.

Covered by Shelton. Studies have been done showing that (excuse me vegan world) animals fed food that had the nutrients removed died in less than half the time of animals that were simply starved to death.

Furthermore, what it comes down to, is people have been doing this for centuries and the evidence shows that it isn't actually bad for you. Still modern science would never dare advocate it, etc, as they wouldn't want to get sued, just in case someone did die. And of course fasting doesn't make you immortal.

The average person can go more than 50 days on fasting. Some people have gone over a hundred. I'm not planning on anything like that.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Nov 27, 2005 9:42 pm 
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Elephant
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Have you read any of Paul Bragg or Dick Gregory's stuff? Dick did juice fasts for up to a year or more as a form of civil rights protest, complete fasts/hunger strikes for 30 days or more and at least once lived on nothing but air for an entire week!

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Nov 27, 2005 9:44 pm 
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Manatee
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Unless for religious or spiritual purposes, I truly see no point whatsoever in fasting. It's just not a healthy thing to do. Bodies need food to function properly...


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 Post subject: Re: Fasting
PostPosted: Sun Nov 27, 2005 10:05 pm 
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Elephant
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How does fasting effect bodyfat percentage? Does the fast eat up fat or muscle first?

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Nov 28, 2005 12:55 am 
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Gorilla

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Micheal, haven't read but have heard of Gregory's hunger strikes. Gandhi apparently knew fasting could be good for his health so I wonder if he could really call having a fast a protest.

Will, I don't know exactly and don't think such info is out there. This page:
http://www.soilandhealth.org/02/0201hyg ... 27.ch7.htm
has some stuff that suggests when taking things all the way to starvation it's 3/1 for fat/muscle. But that's for starvation, not fasting and it's based on animal experimentation which doesn't necessarily mean much.

lkj, that's exactly what I said until I read up on it.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Nov 28, 2005 11:19 pm 
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Elephant
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goodluck on your fast. I have fasted before and I have found it to be very awesome. I was thinking about fasting again sometime in the future for a week to see the results.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2005 11:14 pm 
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Rabbit
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You got to be careful with the whole fasting thing, if you don't do it right, you could hurt your system quiet a bit. I did the boxer's fast a few times, its all about detoxing and not loosing muscle mass. I tired did it the first time for 5 days and the second time for 8 days, felt great afterwards. You do loose some weight but you gain it right back in the next couple of days no matter what you eat. Its great for detoxing from whatever but not for loosing weight. Only exersice works for loosing weight permanently.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2005 12:05 pm 
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Elephant
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I think that with fasting you really need to be careful, not because of the fasting itself but with the information you read, you got to remember that people can only speak from where their at so just because you read that fasting did not work for someone does not mean it won't work for you!

Question: What do animals do when they get sick? they fast!

infact animals dry fast meaning no food or liquids are taken in, . I guess that as a Fruitarian I'm on a permanant juice fast, so it can be done! :wink: from my experience the body will use the fat first then when there's nothing left it will eat any unused muscle, so if you don't use it your gonna lose it!!!!!!

Fasting is great if done properly! and if you listen to your body and I know that what people don't realise is that the cleaner you are the easier fasting is! :wink: and a lot of people jump straight into it without taking this into consideration before you fast I would go raw for a while and gradually clean yourself out then fast as you see fit! Right now I'm dry fasting because I can! and I'll stop when I feel like it!

Check out this site!
http://www.freedomyou.com/

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2005 1:21 pm 
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Gorilla

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http://www.drmirkin.com/mp3s/hour180.mp3
This sort of thing drives me nuts. This guy obviously never even read any of Shelton's books. Not surprisingly one of Shelton's patients died (as sick people occasionally do) and Shelton was successfully sued for almost a million dollars.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2005 1:54 pm 
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Elephant
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ljk11 wrote:
Unless for religious or spiritual purposes, I truly see no point whatsoever in fasting. It's just not a healthy thing to do. Bodies need food to function properly...


What would happen if you held your breath?

I know of people that have gone a couple of years with out food!

But you cannot function without air! :wink:

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2005 2:04 pm 
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Elephant
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Do you see those guys with the huge potbellies where the belly is hanging over the belt? well what does Mr Mirkin think that is? it's undigested waste from eating too many meals at one time over a period of years so to say that waste does not get stuck in the colon is really funny :lol: also some people do not poop every day when I used to eat meat I'd be lucky if I pooped twice a week! Thanks for sharing that link Jay! it took me a while to figure out I had to listen to it :lol:

Hey Jay this link might be of interest!
http://www.patricktimpone.com/main/audio.htm

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2005 3:35 pm 
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Rabbit
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Juice fasting is good for detoxing, and you get vitamin and minerals, its also much safer. I tried a water fast for 2 days but i did it wrong, because i didnt eat less the days before the fast and after the fast, about a month later i gained around 10 pounds. :( Water fasting has its benifits still.


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