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 Post subject: Re: Intermittent fasting
PostPosted: Tue Dec 15, 2009 1:39 pm 
Damn, does this IF thing sounds cool! If I could get at least half the results you guys are getting, it would be fantastic, as fat-loss was always one of the most frustrating and psychologically draining things ever for me. Also, I absolutely HATE eating 5-6 times a day!

What I wanted to ask is - what kinds of maintenance calorie % do you use for fat-loss/body recomp/mass-gain while on IF? Do you watch your macros or is it basically voo-doo?


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 Post subject: Re: Intermittent fasting
PostPosted: Tue Dec 15, 2009 2:26 pm 
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Elephant

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Location: Stockholm, Sweden.
Yeah IF is great! I also hated eating 6 times per day, it sucks and me and my stomach couldn't stand it.
Personally I watch my macros closely but they differ from day to day. Recently I was both bulking and cutting at the same time and I did it by a low-moderate fat moderate-high protein diet about 15% fat, 25% protein and 60% carbs. And this is where I try to be around always.
Macros are key for a body recomposition and with that I basically mean protein. I love carbs and hate to eat a lot of fat (makes me slow and feeling kinda heavy) so I go with starches like rice, quinoa, potatoes etc. But if you prefer to go higher fat just go ahead, just as long as you keep protein high.
One of the things I love with eating 2-3 times per day (only 2 real meals and sometimes I have a snack) is that I can actually spend more time focusing on tasty cooking, when eating 6 meals it's kinda hard to put a lot of effort into every meal.
We are a couple of people on here doing IF so if you're going to try it just ask if you have any questions and tell us about your experience.

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 Post subject: Re: Intermittent fasting
PostPosted: Thu Dec 17, 2009 1:46 pm 
Cool, I'll give it a go as soon as possible (whenever that is)!


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 Post subject: Re: Intermittent fasting
PostPosted: Thu Dec 17, 2009 7:57 pm 
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Elephant
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New post at leangains.com. Martin talks about a new study which shows an increase in metabolism over 24+ hours when pre-workout protein supplementation is used. I am glad I just grabbed some BCAAs to use before my "fasted" training.

He also cited this study in the comments, which shows that totally fasted training may be more effective at increasing resting energy expenditure over 24 hours than consuming carbs before a workout, but less effective than consuming protein.

Quote:
That's a good point. Jamurtas et al showed REE to be elevated by approx 5.5% at the 24-hour mark after fasted training.
http://www.springerlink.com/content/r203q0j2h7jj50lh/


So, a "fasted" training state, combined with a little boost to protein synthesis from BCAAs or EAAs, may result in an even higher level of REE over 24 hours post-workout. Combine that with the fact that the increase in REE is probably mostly from increased protein synthesis. Hell yes.

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 Post subject: Re: Intermittent fasting
PostPosted: Sat Dec 19, 2009 5:25 pm 
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Elephant
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xzebrasx wrote:
Damn, does this IF thing sounds cool! If I could get at least half the results you guys are getting


+1

I'm gonna start looking into this as well. Most days I don't actually mind eating 6-8 meals a day, but it feels like I'm on a constant "run" without a break. I'd just like a couple of short fast periods throughout the week where I wouldn't have to worry about food.

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 Post subject: Re: Intermittent fasting
PostPosted: Mon Jan 04, 2010 3:37 am 
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Manatee
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xjohanx wrote:
I don't think there's anything that "counts" or doesn't, 12-14 hours is a pretty long time so I bet you get some health benefits out of it. The "classic" IF regimen is 16 hours fast and an 8 hour feeding window but everyone does it differently.
Regarding the fueling, I think doing what feels good is the only way to go and personally (like you) I don't need to fuel up a whole lot before a workout. I eat at 11 pm and train the next day at around 4 pm. I take EAA and creatine before and usually I try to drink some coffe or diet coke to boost myself with caffeine but I manage just fine without it. The people talking with you about not being properly fueled are probably people that are bound to eat every three hours and protein shakes too, at least they are in my case :D



Xjohanx, obviously IF works well for you and I don't want to start a discussion about what is the "best" or "healthiest" diet, but I am just wondering... if IF has so many benefits, what is the need of EAA's, creatine, coffee and diet coke? Again, just wondering.


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 Post subject: Re: Intermittent fasting
PostPosted: Mon Jan 04, 2010 3:51 am 
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Manatee
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xjohanx wrote:
Bumping this!

30th september I weighed 67,3 kg and had 6,8% bodyfat. Today (3/12) my weight is 68,9 kg and my bf% is 4,7. That means I've lost 1,2 kg fat and gained 2,8 kg fat free mass. IF rules, get into it.


IF sounds very interesting to me so, I am reading a lot about it. Not sure if I can do it - or if I want to do it, because I just like food and love to eat :D

BUT 30th september - 03rd december = 2,8 kg fat free mass??? What does that mean? Pure muscle mass? I always thought that with (natural) training you cannot gain more than approx. 5kg a year. I mean, I don't doubt that this is what your scale tells you, but can this be true?


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 Post subject: Re: Intermittent fasting
PostPosted: Mon Jan 04, 2010 2:55 pm 
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Elephant

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nobbi wrote:
Xjohanx, obviously IF works well for you and I don't want to start a discussion about what is the "best" or "healthiest" diet, but I am just wondering... if IF has so many benefits, what is the need of EAA's, creatine, coffee and diet coke? Again, just wondering.


I'm not sure what you mean. IF is not really a diet per say but a meal frequency plan or whatever you want to call it. EAA, creatine, beta-alanine and caffeine are the supps I take because they enhance my results. I don't think they are very healthy nor do I think they are unhealthy. The coffee and diet coke is for pure pleasure (even though it comes with a few benefits). There is no need for any of them just as there is no need for my lentils or TVP but I like them.

nobbi wrote:
BUT 30th september - 03rd december = 2,8 kg fat free mass??? What does that mean? Pure muscle mass? I always thought that with (natural) training you cannot gain more than approx. 5kg a year. I mean, I don't doubt that this is what your scale tells you, but can this be true?


Fatfree mass can be anything except fat, most likely it's muscle and water.
A natural can def gain more than 5 kg per year even though it might be hard for most. And this wasn't my scale it was a bodpod (http://www.bodpod.com/).

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 Post subject: Re: Intermittent fasting
PostPosted: Thu Feb 25, 2010 10:07 pm 
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Elephant
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I've been gone awhile. This thread needs some action and bumpage. I will try to get some new pics soon here. Recently, I've cut out most fruit besides berries, limited starches to only legumes, added some soybeans to my diet, and added in a little bit of protein powder. I am going to keep the protein powder to less than 10% of calories, in order to adhere to most nutrient density recommendations. So far, the high amount of protein seems to be working. It is hard to tell what is giving me results, because I've added caffeine, extra protein, and finally am on some really good workouts, ala Iron Addict. I will get some pics up in about a month, once the results show even more. I am getting pretty big, and leaning out right now. Currently sit at 181, 11% bodyfat, at 5'10''. And I hit my 405 deadlift. IF is serving me well.

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 Post subject: Re: Intermittent fasting
PostPosted: Fri Feb 26, 2010 3:01 am 
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Elephant

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Congrats on the deadlift and results mate. It's great to hear from you again. I don't follow Fuhrman recommendation or anything but the non-whole food stuff actually is less than 10% of my daily energy intake most days, sometimes it's up to 12 maybe but it's protein powders, tvp and eaa. However I eat a shit load of grains :D. I've started focusing more on squatting (kinda high rep stuff), pull-ups and dips (both weighted) and those plus the mirror serve as my markers of sucess and it's going good. Hopefully I will do another bodpod soon to check, I feel I really need to because I'm really just guessing how much calories I should be eating, I'm up to 3600-3800 (almost always 3800) per day.

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cubby2112 wrote:
When someone says you don't train "functionally," you should just punch them in the face. Ask them how "functional" of a movement that was.


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 Post subject: Re: Intermittent fasting
PostPosted: Fri Feb 26, 2010 8:33 am 
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Elephant
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Glad to hear from you and that you are focusing on big movements. High reps are best for some, depending on muscle fiber composition. Big movements are best for all. I do best on low reps, because I am freaky type 2 dominant. My weights have to get really small as my reps go up. I would love to do a bod pod. I caliper myself and use bioimpedance multiple times over a few days and average it when I want to test. I will have to see if there is some kind of displacement method available around me. And how much it costs. Someone as lean as you would absolutely need something like a bod pod to get body fat tested. I don't think I could pinch shit with calipers, and bioimpedance just isn't that great, especially for really lean or fat people.

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The metric system is socialized measurment. If you implement it it will only be a matter of time before your grandma will stand in front of a death panel being forced to deny the existance of baby Jesus.

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 Post subject: Re: Intermittent fasting
PostPosted: Sun Feb 28, 2010 6:56 pm 
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Joined: Tue Sep 29, 2009 6:09 pm
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I'm glad to see discussions about IF. I've been playing around with it for about a year now. I started out with a Warrior Diet approach but now I've been using a more Eat Stop Eat style approach. It's a lot more flexible for me. However, there are quite a few "warrior-style" days for me as well.

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 Post subject: Re: Intermittent fasting
PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2010 12:18 pm 
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Gorilla
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so i am thinking i am going to try this. I just did a 12 day juice feast, and I was afraid it was gonna suck, because who wants to not eat for 12 days. Well, itsucked for about 3 days, then I actually felt awesome. If I wasnt so scared of losing more weight, I probably would have kept going...well that and it's expensive. But I'm now back to eating 3 meals a day (down from the 6 I used to eat and despised), but I can already tell that I just dont feel as *good* as I did while doing nothing but liquids. My physique goals are currently just to get down to about 18% bf, which is where I used to be, right now i think i'm around 21.... :-/ (haha, it sucks to actually type that to the public.) but I dont really want to lose any more than 5 lbs tops to do it.

I figured i's ask johan and cubby, since you guys seem to be the IF experts! I dont really know what I should be aiming to eat, as far as amounts go. I have strayed from my high protein ways. eating 150 g protein was just hellish for me, but it was nearly all shakes before. I've moved more towards whole foods, although I always have protein powder around if need be. I am cool with skipping breakfast and starting eating around 3 pm, as my last meal is usually at about 10:30, and I can workoiut somewhere in that window. Any other advice you could offer would be swell!

Also, what are the effects of having a "cheat" day every other week or so? ( i usually go out for breakfast with a friend a couple times a month)

Thanks for your thoughts guys, and thanks for doing all this research so us lazies dont have to <3

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 Post subject: Re: Intermittent fasting
PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2010 2:21 pm 
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Elephant
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thendanisays wrote:
so i am thinking i am going to try this. I just did a 12 day juice feast, and I was afraid it was gonna suck, because who wants to not eat for 12 days. Well, itsucked for about 3 days, then I actually felt awesome. If I wasnt so scared of losing more weight, I probably would have kept going...well that and it's expensive. But I'm now back to eating 3 meals a day (down from the 6 I used to eat and despised), but I can already tell that I just dont feel as *good* as I did while doing nothing but liquids. My physique goals are currently just to get down to about 18% bf, which is where I used to be, right now i think i'm around 21.... :-/ (haha, it sucks to actually type that to the public.) but I dont really want to lose any more than 5 lbs tops to do it.

I figured i's ask johan and cubby, since you guys seem to be the IF experts! I dont really know what I should be aiming to eat, as far as amounts go. I have strayed from my high protein ways. eating 150 g protein was just hellish for me, but it was nearly all shakes before. I've moved more towards whole foods, although I always have protein powder around if need be. I am cool with skipping breakfast and starting eating around 3 pm, as my last meal is usually at about 10:30, and I can workoiut somewhere in that window. Any other advice you could offer would be swell!

Also, what are the effects of having a "cheat" day every other week or so? ( i usually go out for breakfast with a friend a couple times a month)

Thanks for your thoughts guys, and thanks for doing all this research so us lazies dont have to <3


If you want to follow Martin Berkhan's method, the guy from leangains.com, you can have a longer feeding windows as a woman, about nine hours. Due to hormonal differences, most women apparently find it easier to follow a 8-10 hours feeding window, instead of the common 7-9. As far as what amounts to eat, basically the same amount you eat right now. You MAY find yourself become leaner on the same number of calories, as has been found for some in the Ramadan studies. I don't know the possible mechanism behind this, but my guess is that de novo lipogenesis probably happens to a much greater extent with big meals than small ones. Basically, the body tries to convert more carbs to fat, instead of storing as glycogen or burning them, and therefore loses about 1/4 of the energy in the conversion. So, I would say, eat the same number of calories you normally do, minus a small amount to lose weight slowly, then reevalute several weeks later.

I agree about feeling better during a fast. You can concentrate more and feel more like moving. That is why I take the opportunity to go for a walk during them, but also because fat burning is generally ramped up a bit.

Whole foods are a great idea, but I find I get too much fiber with them, but I am going for a high protein intake, which equals lots of beans. I am going for something more along the lines of 80-90% whole foods now (still with lots of veggies, of course, which are part of the fiber problem). I think you have a good idea with keeping the shakes around.

Cheating every other week or so is fine. If it is one meal, it will not hurt anything. If you want, you can just make the rest of that day high protein and low in other calories, or just not worry about it at all. Depends on how it affects your goals.

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The metric system is socialized measurment. If you implement it it will only be a matter of time before your grandma will stand in front of a death panel being forced to deny the existance of baby Jesus.

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 Post subject: Re: Intermittent fasting
PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2010 2:41 pm 
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Elephant

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Location: Stockholm, Sweden.
thendanisays wrote:
I dont really know what I should be aiming to eat, as far as amounts go.


If you have no idea I would use the Harris Benedict-equation, add the calories you spend on excersise each day and then subtract with around 500 kcal. This means that you will eat more on the days you excersise which according to me is a good thing.

thendanisays wrote:
I have strayed from my high protein ways


Go back to it :wink:

thendanisays wrote:
Also, what are the effects of having a "cheat" day every other week or so?


I do not like the term cheating at all. Your diet shouldn't control your life, if anything it should be the other way around. Fasting isn't something magical it's just a way to restrict calories while still being able to eat large meals and you might get some additional health benefits. The only problem that might occur is that your hunger hormones adjust to when you are eating and it takes some time to get used to not eating breakfast but after a while it feels totally normal because you simply won't be very hungry in the morning. But if you always once a week eat breakfast I'm not sure how well your body will make the adjustment and I think it's highly individual. Try it out and see what happens. Otherwise just drinking coffee is a damn good breakfast :D

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When someone says you don't train "functionally," you should just punch them in the face. Ask them how "functional" of a movement that was.


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