Getting Lean

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Rain Forrest
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Getting Lean

#1 Postby Rain Forrest » Tue Feb 28, 2006 2:05 pm

I am currently trying to get lean, ie ripped + cut. I want a six pack!

I think it is coming along nicely and in the near future, for the first time in my life, I will have one.

I was wondering if anybody had any general tips or secrets that works for them to get lean. How do YOU do it?

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#2 Postby Rain Forrest » Fri Mar 03, 2006 8:25 pm

I guess what I'm wondering is how do you keep yourself in that fat loss stage? How do you tell if you are burning fat or if you are gaining? I know that eating is important for muscle - but I don't know how much not eating you need to do to burn the fat... I am doing regular cardio... I am thinking maybe the cardio itself is all you need and then just eating sensibly will do the trick. I've never had an intense regular cardio regime before and I am hoping that in itself will help me do all the burning I need.

Has anybody had good results with counting calories they couldn't get otherwise? I think sometime soon I may start doing that if I am not getting the results I want. It is hard to tell if the fat is coming off. I guess persistence is key.

I hope I am not babbling, or beating a dead horse> I know "cutting" is talked about a lot but it is an important part of fitness, I figure new light can be shed on understanding continually because, you really never stop learning or growing.

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#3 Postby Rain Forrest » Sat Mar 04, 2006 3:55 pm

Also, how important is a carb cut-off for getting to a low body fat?

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#4 Postby Daywalker » Sat Mar 04, 2006 4:44 pm

What is your starting point?
What is your strategy?
Did you read the sticky?

Rain Forrest wrote:Also, how important is a carb cut-off for getting to a low body fat?

I think it's the best way to save some calories. Not the only one, and not crucial, but the best.
No one said it would be easy.

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#5 Postby Rain Forrest » Sat Mar 04, 2006 6:33 pm

I've read the sticky and other threads, some bodybuilding.com stuff too and just random articles. I was hoping someone would present some magic secret to leanness.

The past couple weeks I've been doing cardio like 3-4 times a week, sometimes more, generally first thing in the morning.

As far as my diet is concerned, I had been eating mostly fruitarian but recently I've recently been eating some cooked food like tofu and bean burgers, and builders bars.. cereal w/ soy milk + hemp protein, etc. I did get a little leaner on the fruitarian diet (I bet I have like 11% or thereabouts body fat), but I am still not cut like I want to be. I am liking the extra protein.

Still, the thing is that I can never tell if I am in a fat loss state.. Generally I can assume I am first thing in the morning, especially after the cardio. Sometimes even after I eat fruit or something after that, I still feel like I am burning fat after that.

Do you burn fat all the time or only like 3 hours after youve eaten? Does eating automatically cancel out your fat loss? Should I eat less often (still in small meals) or more often. Is snacking every 2 hours OK to still lose fat? At around 135 lbs (guestimate), I think somewhere between 1400 and 1800 calories would be good for losing fat. Or is that too much a deficit?

Here is about what I ate yesterday:

1 cup oatmeal w/ soy milk - 250
Apple- 80
Banana – 100
Banana/date/chocolate balls~ 300 calories
Small avocado – 100
Tofu + Soybean + Spinach (+a couple other veggies) Salad – 250
Halva – 300
Builder bar – 270

Total: 1650 calories

A little low on protein, but I am still working on getting protein sources in my diet while maintaining a balance of raw fruits + veggies. Also, more fat than I would like. Overall, I think it was an OK day. I doubt I lost much fat, but i don't think I really gained any either..

Hmm... sorry that this became a journal entry. I guess I will have to keep a log. Lemme know if you have any input to anything, though.

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#6 Postby Daywalker » Sun Mar 05, 2006 3:12 am

Rain Forrest wrote:The past couple weeks I've been doing cardio like 3-4 times a week, sometimes more, generally first thing in the morning.

That's good, keep it.

Do you burn fat all the time or only like 3 hours after youve eaten? Does eating automatically cancel out your fat loss?

It depends on what you eat. Eating a meal/snack high in carbs stops the fat burning. Also, your rate of fat burning is higher in the hours after an intense workout.
So, i'd suggest for fat loss, eat complex carbs only twice per day (breakfast and lunch), snack with little carbs (raw food, esp. salads and veggies or nuts, sprouts) and in the evening eat high protein. Add healthy fats to that.

Should I eat less often (still in small meals) or more often.

More often, but not carbs (see above).

Is snacking every 2 hours OK to still lose fat?

Yes, as long as you don't snack carbs ;)

At around 135 lbs (guestimate), I think somewhere between 1400 and 1800 calories would be good for losing fat. Or is that too much a deficit?

One key is to vary the calories per day. Determine the number of calories you need to maintain your weight, and then subtract 15%. Eat this amount on average per day for a week, but not every day the same number. Vary your calories by +/- 10% at least.


Also, more fat than I would like.

Fat is no problem, unless you eat high carbs also and exceed your calory total.

Overall, I think it was an OK day. I doubt I lost much fat, but i don't think I really gained any either..

I also think your attitude is detrimental to your goal ;)

Peace,
Daywalker
:)
No one said it would be easy.

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#7 Postby Rain Forrest » Tue Mar 21, 2006 2:04 pm

I realized I never replied, so I just wanted to say thanks! I've learned a lot from this... both reinforing what I had already been hearing and how to apply it to my personal habits.

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#8 Postby Cristian » Thu Mar 23, 2006 2:55 pm

Daywalker wrote:
Fat is no problem, unless you eat high carbs also and exceed your calory total.


What would you say is high carb? Or for better word, how many grams is too much carbs?
Things are moving forward

Nothing in this world that's worth having comes easy

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#9 Postby _raVen_ » Thu Mar 23, 2006 4:01 pm

Cristian, I think it comes down to basically sugar. THe more simple the carb -- potatoes; bread/s (especially white); cookies; cakes, energy/sports/health bars; cereals; pastas; noodles; etc. -- the quicker it turns to sugar and the more concentrated the sugars contained within them because they have been refined (except for potatoes, which are okay once in awhile -- eat the skin).

Complex carbs are better. Beans, which are complex carbs and a good protein source, are really good. Whole grains are also complex; quinoa, millet, amaranth, etc., unprocessed are best. "Whole grain" breads are not really that much better; but okay once in a while.

Fruit is also great, even if a simple "sugar" because its fiber slows the sugar absorption, plus the inumerable micro/phyto nutrients they contain make them a good choice.

Read about Carb Fats HERE; it's a short, 2-page article.

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#10 Postby 9nines » Thu Mar 23, 2006 4:08 pm

Dr. McDougall (promoets a high starch vegan diet) actually centers his diet around starches (potatoes, rice etc.) and recommends against any added fat and keeping fat intake below 20% of your total calories (studies showing fat is easily stored as fat, whereas the body does not store carbohydrates as well and normally raise metabolism and burns them instead.) His program has a very effective and stable weight loss record.

Again there are many studies showing starches lead to increased metabolisms (body does not store carbohydrates as it digest them as well as it does fat, so instead it just burns them - i.e. increased metabolism.) His newsletter has highlighted many of those studies.

http://www.drmcdougall.com/

Here is a link to message board about his diet: http://www.vegsource.com/mcdougall/

Newsletter archive: http://www.nealhendrickson.com/mcdougal ... eindex.htm

Here is one article on this subject:

High Carbohydrate* Diet Causes Effortless Weight Loss

Effects of an Ad Libitum (without restriction on amount) Low-Fat, High-Carbohydrate Diet on Body Weight, Body Composition, and Fat Distribution in Older Men and Women: A Randomized Controlled Trial by Nicholas P. Hays in the January 26, 2004 issue of the Archives of Internal Medicine found when older men and women consumed as much as they wanted of high-carbohydrate, low-fat foods they lost weight without “dieting.” Over 12-weeks, participants on the recommended diet lost about 7 pounds without cutting calories and without exercising – and almost 11 pounds with 45 minutes of stationary bike-riding, four times weekly. The control group lost no weight. The experimental diet was 63% carbohydrate and 18% fat – the McDougall diet is even more effective because it is 80% carbohydrate and 7% fat.

This article is an excellent review of the principles discussed in my book, the McDougall Program for Maximum Weight Loss, first published in 1994 (just to point out, not much has happened in 10 years for better nutrition). The authors provide many recent scientific references establishing why a high carbohydrate diet effortlessly and effectively results in weight loss without hunger in overweight people, and provides a lifetime of trim body weight maintenance.

The scientific explanations for why a diet of starches, vegetables and fruits is the real solution for obesity in the Western world are found in this article. These are the three main principles:

1) High carbohydrate foods are very low in calorie density – very bulky, so they fill the stomach with fewer calories than the Western (American) diet.

2) The fat you eat is the fat you wear – fat is effortlessly stored – excess carbohydrates are not turned into fat under normal living conditions – excess carbohydrate is simply burned off.

3) Carbohydrates satisfy your hunger drive – fats leave you unsatisfied and looking for food (carbohydrate). You act like an “Obsessive Compulsive Overeater” – like you have some kind of emotional-mental disorder, and all you really are is hungry for carbohydrates.

This article would be well worth a trip to your local library (hospital, university, or community) for a copy to help you explain to family and friends why they are on the wrong track. This article may also be purchased for $12 (US) over the Internet at: http://archinte.ama-assn.org.

Nicholas P. Hays; Raymond D. Starling; Xiaolan Liu; Dennis H. Sullivan; Todd A. Trappe; James D. Fluckey; William J. Evans. Effects of an Ad Libitum Low-Fat, High-Carbohydrate Diet on Body Weight, Body Composition, and Fat Distribution in Older Men and Women: A Randomized Controlled Trial Arch Intern Med. 2004;164:210-217.

* Please understand that when I write about carbohydrates I mean starches, vegetables, and fruits – not donuts, cookies, cake, potato chips, and French fries.

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#11 Postby _raVen_ » Thu Mar 23, 2006 4:23 pm

Dr. Atkins's diet works too; doesn't make it optimal for health.

For optimal health a balanced diet is best:
Getting Carbs, protein, and whole fats.

If there is any program which is best, it's Dr. Fuhrman's "Eat to Live."

I've done McDougall. It's not optimal for health. Some will lose weight, I did too; but it is a diet most people struggle with. It is more of a "diet" than a program for life. Fuhrman's is a lifestyle program to eat for life.

I had *major* problems being on McDougall long term. I do notice now (incidentally, since Fuhrman's diet came out) that he advocates more vegetables and more raw (like Fuhrman) when he never did before. I have his first books and know his plan well.
If one is sick, of course they will be better on his plan: anytime you cut out junk you get "better."

I hope my post doesn't sound hostile, hehe; McDougalling is a peeve of mine from years of experience with it and from dealing with the zealotry of "McDougallers." The successful ones don't even follow his plan; they make exceptions in order to make it work. Interestingly, they end up doing a Fuhrmanesque plan, but refuse to call it so out of some weird Dr. McDougall worship.

Btw, I don't hate the good Doc. I get his newsletters and agree with 90% of what he advocates.

;)

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#12 Postby 9nines » Thu Mar 23, 2006 4:35 pm

Rain Forrest wrote:Here is about what I ate yesterday:

1 cup oatmeal w/ soy milk - 250
Apple- 80
Banana – 100
Banana/date/chocolate balls~ 300 calories
Small avocado – 100
Tofu + Soybean + Spinach (+a couple other veggies) Salad – 250
Halva – 300
Builder bar – 270

Total: 1650 calories

A little low on protein, but I am still working on getting protein sources in my diet


Actually it is not low in protein.

Protein estimate:

The oatmeal would have had about 8 grams.
SoyMilk " 5 grams
Banana " 2 grams
Banana/date/chocolate balls " 5
Avocado " 5
Tofu+soybean+spinach salad " 15
Halva "4
Builder Bar " 20

(The above are low estimates.) That would be 64 grams of protein. 4 calories per gram. So 256 calories were protein. That is 256/1650, or 15.5% of your diet is protein. Again, I made low estimates; it is probably closer to 20%. That is not a low protein diet. A no actvie person only needs about 7%. Active body builder 15 to 20%. If you need more protein (not higher percentage of your diet being protein) then you need more food. Just eat the same but more.
.

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#13 Postby AdrienneP » Thu Mar 23, 2006 4:47 pm

Ideally, if you want to gain muscle mass while minimizing body fat, you should stick to about a 55/30/15 (C/P/F) to a 55/25/20 (C/P/F) ratio. The amount of fat in your diet should depend on what kind of training you do. Since weight lifters use only ATP and glycogen stores, they don't use much fat.. so if you eat too much, it will get stored.

Your calories should always come from the best sources possible: whole grains, proteins, fruits, and veggies. You NEED protein to gain muscle.

~ Adrienne
------------------------------
Adrienne Priebe, CFT
MPS Fitness Training
http://www.yoadrienne.com

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#14 Postby 9nines » Thu Mar 23, 2006 4:51 pm

_raVen_ wrote:Dr. Atkins's diet works too; doesn't make it optimal for health.


Sorry to make a rebuttal and I do not want to debate it here (and you sounded the same) but I responded because you imply his diet as on par with Dr. Atkins, which it is not. Atkins causes starvation symptoms (ketosis) in the body and water loss and increases diseases such as diabetes, hypertension, etc. while Dr. McDougall's diet has helped many people cure those diseases to conditions where they no longer had to take drugs to treat them. Again, Atkins has the opposite track record when it comes to those diseases.

Note: I do not follow his diet because I eat more fat and fruit than he would recommend but I never had a weight problem (in fact many days, I have to hunt more calories to eat -and those extra choices are usually dense calorie food -peanut butter etc.) is the main reason I do not follow it.

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#15 Postby 9nines » Thu Mar 23, 2006 4:54 pm

AdrienneP wrote:Ideally, if you want to gain muscle mass while minimizing body fat, you should stick to about a 55/30/15 (C/P/F) to a 55/25/20 (C/P/F) ratio. The amount of fat in your diet should depend on what kind of training you do. Since weight lifters use only ATP and glycogen stores, they don't use much fat.. so if you eat too much, it will get stored.

Your calories should always come from the best sources possible: whole grains, proteins, fruits, and veggies. You NEED protein to gain muscle.

~ Adrienne


I posted a study here a months or so ago. It showed based on nitrogen measurement that even competitive body builders do not need the protein amounts you are advocating. It should be here somewhere. I have to go. I will check for it tomorrow.


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