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 Post subject: Sprouting seeds: no need for vitamin pills, even B12?
PostPosted: Fri Mar 03, 2006 3:44 am 
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Gorilla
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So much contradiction on the web!

VegSoc says vegans should take b12 in supplement form. Even Dr. Fuhrman says we should take a synthetic vitamin pill.

However, "The Vitamin B12 article" (http://www.living-foods.com/articles/b12issue.html) warns of the danger of taking synthetic stuff.

I've never been happy with the idea of taking pills/tablets for nutrition.

The Vitamin B12 article suggests relying on organic veg with trace amounts of organic soil.

Now I've heard that the small amount of B12 we need can also be obtained from certain sprouted seeds (this page is in German but I will translate the key paragraph below):

http://www.alles-vegetarisch.de/article ... Samen.html

"Linsensprossen enthalten u.a. die Vitamine A, B1, B2, B3, B6, B12, viel Vitamin C und E, dazu Eisen, Mangan, Natrium, Niacin, Phosphor und Zink."

"Sprouted linseeds contain, amongst others, the vitamins A, B1, B3, B6, B12 (!), lots of Vitamin C and E, as well as iron, manganese, sodium, niacin, phosphorous and zinc."

Definitely no need for pill supplements then.

After all you don't hear gorillas say, "I must go down to the shops to get myself a packet of vitamin tablets."

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Mar 05, 2006 2:05 am 
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Elephant

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You can't base facts off of one article. It's like saying that the articles on meat being essential are correct because it was in one. Theres definitely a need for more studies in this field.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Mar 05, 2006 4:04 am 
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Elephant
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It's a dangerous gamble not to take your B12.
All studies so far of trying to find B12 in vegetation have been negative.
The most dangerous thing when not taking B12 is not the anemia (it takes long time to develop that) but rather raised homocysteine levels.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Mar 05, 2006 8:07 am 
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Gorilla
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Sure. Of course. However, what do you make of the fact that B12 is included in the nutritional information on this product, which is 100% sprouted linseed.

Ah yes, I noticed this too: "Tesco’s raspberries now state quite clearly that 100g of raspberries contain 30% of the recommended daily allowance of vitamin B12," (from http://www.living-foods.com/articles/b12issue.html). Maybe our fruitarian friend Bigbwii will have something to say about this.

(Tesco is the main supermarket chain in England. On all its packaged foods there is detailed nutritional information.)

I realise it is a controversial issue and I respect anyone who still chooses to take a pill/tablet to "be on the safe side".

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 05, 2006 10:22 am 
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Rabbit
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Intresting. Would be good if we could finally put the "you can't really claim that veganism is healthy when the only way to survive is to take a pill" claims. Hope they are right.

But yeah, i'll keep taking the pills til someone produces some concrete evidence....

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Mar 05, 2006 6:22 pm 
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Elephant
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I take a multi with B12. I think everyone should take a B12 supplement regardless of whether they are vegan or meat eater

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Apr 18, 2006 7:14 am 
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Rabbit
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How much B12 should we take?

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Apr 18, 2006 9:23 am 
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Elephant

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Location: Illinois
From what I understand, B12 is of bacterial origin. And the only foods that contain it do so because of the bacteria present. Veggies only contain it if they are grown outdoors and not washed well (picked straight from the garden). It's also present in the soil.

Until someone comes up with a definitive answer on whether or not B12 is available in vegan foods (and it's not the B12 analog found in seaweeds that our bodies can assimilate), I'll still take my supplements.

But do B12 supplements have to be "synthetic"? Can't the bacteria be grown in culture rather than synthesized in a test tube?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Apr 18, 2006 5:52 pm 
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Gorilla
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I don't know how the chemists produce it.

Just for the record: while I haven't taken any supplements in pill/tablet form this year, I have been drinking fruit juice with added vitamins and minerals, including B12, so I guess I'm taking the safe route, too :D

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Apr 22, 2006 11:58 am 
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Rabbit
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I have a question:

Where do they get this B12 from?? where do these supplement companies "find" the B12 to put in their supplement??? where do the cows get their B12 found in the meat?


Going on 4+ years with NO B12 supplements.. still waiting for the symptoms of deficiency.... think I'll be waiting for a LONG time coming....



synthetic B12 (like anything synthetic) is an abomnation. If it was not manufactured by our creator, than it is inferior

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Apr 22, 2006 1:59 pm 
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Elephant
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Raw Ambition wrote:

Where do they get this B12 from?? where do these supplement companies "find" the B12 to put in their supplement??? where do the cows get their B12 found in the meat?




It comes from bacteria. It's basically cobalt bonded to some organic groups. All of its elements occur naturally in the world

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Apr 22, 2006 5:39 pm 
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It's just a bunch of personal opinions and ideas thrown around. I don't see any evidence in it at all.

Like the author claims that foods like onions and garlic etc. are "lethal" to intestinal flora. Yet onions and garlic have long been known as Pre-biotic foods that improve intestinal flora.

They also claim that a healthy body will expel fermented substances and doesn't use fermented food. No evidence or proof or even logical theory for it, just unfounded claims out of the blue.

They also claim that synthetic supplements are not usable by the body only discard unused. There are tons of evidence to the contrary. While isolated synthetic supplements might not be the best thing or could create imbalances in nutrients, and the body discards what it doesn't need of it for water soluble ones, they are used and usable by the body. Again the author provides no evidence, sound theory or studies that back up those claims that the body only discards supplements as quickly as possible and are unusable.

B12 vitamins are made from bacteria, so I don't see how that is synthetic and not "naturally derived". The author also claims that if they made supplements from naturally derived ingredients, the pills would be too large to swallow. Again, another ludicrous claim. Many supplements are derived from natural ingredients. Many are just extracts from natural ingredients or concentrates. And they are not too large to swallow but really small. Like olive leaf extract, grape seed extract, and many vitamins and minerals are extracted from foods and concentrated. Some aren't even vegan and derived from animals. If they were all synthetic vegans wouldn't have to be concerned about the source of any of them.

Funny that they mention Doug Graham too, since he found out that he had a B12 deficiency and then so supplemented with B12 pills to correct it.

As far as B12 supplementation or not, I grew up lacto-veg and then went vegan for 10yrs before I even thought about the need to supplement with B12. I had stayed away from enriched foods too because I didn't trust them. I started taking the pills recently but so far I have not noticed any changes from it. It says it gives you more energy, but it hasn't. I haven't noticed any other changes either. I also didn't have any known symptoms of a deficiency. So I don't know. Maybe I was getting it just fine, or not, but how do you know?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Apr 22, 2006 6:23 pm 
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Gorilla
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Thanks for all the input. It's kind of a controversial topic.

@nik - well argued and detailed criticism of the infamous "B12 article".

So what made you decide to start "taking the pills"?

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Apr 22, 2006 7:16 pm 
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Elephant

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Raw Ambition wrote:

Going on 4+ years with NO B12 supplements.. still waiting for the symptoms of deficiency.... think I'll be waiting for a LONG time coming....



Since the liver stores B12, and requirements for B12 are rather low, you may have enough B12 'in storage' to last a while. But by the time symptoms of deficiency show up, harm may have already been done. It's best to get tested to see if you are getting sufficient B12.

And I'm sure that in the far past, humans got B12 from the same place animals do: from unwashed foods and even soil.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Apr 24, 2006 12:59 pm 
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Rabbit
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In that case, maybe I'll eat a piece of fish once every 5 years in oder to restock my liver with the B12.

OR

I can go out to my friends garden and eat a big pile of dirt.

SHOULD fix me up!

There is so much information, and misinformation out there about ANY subject that one can go batty trying to figure out what's right and what's not. There's a term for it now, it's called analysis paralysis. So yes, alot of personal opinion has gone into my choices, because it has to, there is so much contradictory information out there. But instead of just rehashing and quoting what I've read somewhere, or what I am taught in school, I take the time, and spend a good amount of my time, thinking about what I've read, and going over it in a logical fashion, and coming up with the best conclusion that I can - but never allow myself to become complacent.

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