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 Post subject: How much protein do you need?
PostPosted: Thu Apr 06, 2006 11:14 am 
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Rabbit
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As an avid strength trainer I am asked most often "How much protein do you eat?" Well to answer that question, let's do a little math.

The human body is made up of 60-70% water. Muscle tissue, is made up of 70-75% water.

1 lb. = 453.6 grams (approx.)

therefore 1 lb. of muscle tissue is made up of approximately 113 grams of protein and approximately 340.2 grams of water.

now as an avid lifter, I've experienced and know that muscle tissue grows at a slow pace...I mean, dreadfully slow. I would be EXTREMELY pleased, if I were to gain even 1 lb of muscle in 1 month.

Now break it down 1lb of muscle over the span of 30 days would equal out to about 3.8 grams of protein per day one would need to consume.

considering the average apple contains 0.3 grams of protein. One would need only consume 10 apples a day to aquire the sufficient amount of protein to create 1 lb. of muscle in 1 month. and apples are not even a high source of protein.
7 oz. of boiled potato contain about 2.8 grams of protein.

so in a nutshell, "how much protein am I eating?"

the answer is "enough"

I do not supplement my diet with any protein powders, or bars, or shakes. and over the span of 3 years have gone from 152 lbs to 185 - 190 lbs (it fluctuates)

Now these numbers are only approximations, as each person will be slightly different, and muscle is obviously made up of more than just water and protein. But it gives you an idea of how much protein one really DOES need to consume... which is far less than the supplement companies want us to believe.

In case anyone might think that my opinion is biased, note this: for years prior to switching to vegetarian, I consumed an exhorbant amount of protein powders and MRP's and every supplement you can think of.. and the only thing it did was make my wallet empty, and my stomach gurgle (among other things)

Please note: I am not a doctor, or a nutritionalist. I am not trying to lecture anyone on how to eat, or live their lives, these are just my thoughts, and they may be incorrect.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Apr 06, 2006 5:14 pm 
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So how many amino acids do you burn for energy? Your body uses essential amino acids (which are put together to build muscle) as an energy source during exercise and any other activities that require exertion. When ONE essential amino acid gets burned, there goes your protein molecule.. because protein requires ALL OF THEM or else it isn't a protein!

How much protein is used to rebuild/repair connective tissues, organs, skin (which regenerates at an amazingly rapid rate), cells, blood? Do you think the degeneration of these tissues is accelerated due to environmental poisons?

You are generalizing. Wouldn't it be nice if all the protein we consumed went straight to the muscles? Unfortunately, very little of it actually gets there.. which is why strength-trainers supplement. Not because the industry *tells us to*.

~ Adrienne

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Apr 06, 2006 5:25 pm 
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Are there not amino acids in all foods we eat? Do we require more protein to create new muscle tissue than to maintain what we already have? How much actually gets to the tissues? how do they measure this? how does one explain a 30+ weight gain? I thought we gained "energy" from the carbohydrates we eat? and that protein is required for new tissue? Does anyone know who Eugene Sandow was? He was a strength trainer at the beginning of the 20th Century, he built an impressive physique, did he supplement his diet?

How about all the other species on the planet? the 3000 lb. bison, the 450 lb. silverback gorilla? where do they get their amino acids to build such vigorous strength? no other animal "supplements" it's diet, yet most exhibit strong musculature.

I'm not saying that protein supplementing doesn't help, I'm just suggesting that it is not necessary to create a strong healthy body (I know that some people were concerned with the costs of protein powders)

Nor am I trying to argue with anyone, I'm not suggesting that anyone is wrong, just that it might not be necessary.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2006 8:35 am 
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Quote:
How about all the other species on the planet? the 3000 lb. bison, the 450 lb. silverback gorilla? where do they get their amino acids to build such vigorous strength? no other animal "supplements" it's diet, yet most exhibit strong musculature.


IMO this is a very valid argument and the one I often rely on when people challenge me on protein needs, particularly where vegetarians are concerned. I happen to believe that supplementation through powders like whey is completely unnecessary if one is consuming adequate amounts of high quality/digestible protein found in natural foods like quinoa, spelt, hemp seed, amaranth etc., to say nothing of the more common foods found in the marketplace. I doubt very much that sumo wrestlers in Japan supplement with 'protein powders'.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2006 3:55 pm 
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Manatee

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I am fairly certain that all proteins have all amino acids (I am not a chemist but I do not think they would chemically form, as protein, without all amino acids.) Incomplete protein is very miss-used term. Many people use it to imply that a particular protein source is missing an amino acid but it is clearly not missing one - I have never seen a nutritional breakdown of any food protein that was absent any. Instead incomplete protein means a source is lower in one or more essential amino acids than an equal amount of complete protein would have.

Here is an example of what a so-called incomplete protein is: a gram of brown rice protein will have 75% of the lysine that a gram of a so-called complete protein would have and meets all other essential amino acids in quantity. Yet it is called incomplete and again many that use that term think that means missing something. So unless you consume the bare minimum protein that your body needs and only from that one source, it is not going to be any issue. For example the needed protein amount divided by 75% (to account for the low lysine in rice), in other numbers 133%, of the needed protein would be satisfied even if rice were you only source (but if that were true you would have a host of micro nutrient deficiencies but not a macro nutrient protein one.)

Now since by most estimates, the average American, including vegans and vegetarians, is consuming three to four times the actual protein needed, it is not going to be an issue.

Interesting note: some cuts of meat (for example, Hamburger meat's lowest essential amino acid is 85% of what a complete protein should have) are also incomplete proteins, yet I have never seen anyone opine that any meats are incomplete.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Apr 25, 2006 1:36 pm 
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Take a look at the plains bison. What made it? That 3000 Lb. animal is made from grass, water, sunlight, and TIME. nothing more. No protein supplements, no "extra" protein. nothing

How about the arguement of "you need protein supplementation to build more than normal amounts of muscle" you mean ABnormal amounts of muscle growth?? that would be called STEREOIDS, now that's an abnormal amount of growth, and todays bodybuilders show us just how abnormal it is.

As we all know, muscle growth is a defensive mechanism, a reaction to physical stress placed upon it. We also know that "normal" (not from any external stimulus) muscle growth generally halts after we stop maturing. We need to generate "abnormal" amounts of stress upon our muscles (more stress than our bodies are conditioned to) and doing so, our bodies will respond.

Really, all it takes is to make an abnormal amount of stress a normal thing and our bodies will take care of everything else.

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Last edited by Raw Ambition on Mon May 15, 2006 9:49 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat May 13, 2006 6:22 pm 
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Gorilla

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Hmm.. thats because that is a Bison that spends most of its time in the wild, walking, standing, running etc. and probably eat a lot more stuff other than just grass. Some flowers, seeds etc.

But primarily because they are a different species.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat May 13, 2006 9:59 pm 
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Rabbit

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Bison are ungulates, and gorillas are hind gut digesters, making their "extracting and synthesizing macronutrients from vegetables" technology just a little more advanced than ours.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon May 15, 2006 2:20 am 
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Gorilla

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Driver wrote:
Bison are ungulates, and gorillas are hind gut digesters, making their "extracting and synthesizing macronutrients from vegetables" technology just a little more advanced than ours.


There you have it :). I guess our digestive system is a little primitive compared to theirs.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon May 15, 2006 9:59 am 
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crashnburn wrote:
Hmm.. thats because that is a Bison that spends most of its time in the wild, walking, standing, running etc. and probably eat a lot more stuff other than just grass. Some flowers, seeds etc.

But primarily because they are a different species.


That is my point exactly! It has less to do with WHAT you're eating, and everything to do with WHAT you're DOING!

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon May 15, 2006 11:12 am 
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I agree with ya Raw Ambition.

But I don't think we can compare much to animals, but I could be wrong.

I've noted the same experience with me, you may see it in another thread here.

But I think it's comes down to more than just protien...I think drinking plenty of water will add size to your muscles...but you must keep maintaining your water intake to maintain your added size.

I found that the more cooked food I ate the more water I needed to dilute the acidic waste from it in my intestines, thus giving me a much bigger appearence, but as son as I stopped down in size I would go.

Real muscle takes so much longer to grow and that's why people take enhancers!

:wink:

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon May 15, 2006 12:48 pm 
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Driver wrote:
Bison are ungulates, and gorillas are hind gut digesters, making their "extracting and synthesizing macronutrients from vegetables" technology just a little more advanced than ours.



If I am reading this correctly, you are saying that we (homosapiens) are poor digesters of protein? which is why we need to supplement? I must be in big trouble then, I haven't been supplementing with any protein. That would explain the poor? results I have been getting. I've only gained just under 30 lbs of muscle in 2.5 years, I can't imagine what kind of results someone who supplements is getting! Shirt splitting!!

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon May 15, 2006 1:56 pm 
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Do you know what happens when you supplement your diet with creatine monohydrate?? your body stops producing it's own. We've seen studies of this. As soon as you stop supplementing with the creatine, you RAPIDLY lose alot of the size you've had. Your body "forgets" how to do it.

It's the same with protein, your body forgets how to mfg. it's own proteins, and becomes "lazy".

What WILL happen when (if?) you stop supplementing will be a sudden and rapid loss in muscle tissue, but only until your body re-adjusts itself to the conditions of a low protein diet.

Some people may argue that my opinion is biased, who knows what kind of results might I have if I actually supplemented with protein?? Well, I've had my share of protein, my share, and bigbwii's share and crashnburns share, etc. I've done the supplement thing, which may be why I'm so strongly against them.

Supplements are exspensive, they put a drain on your wallet which is not necessary, save your money!!! save it for more important things, like drugs and hookers!!

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I am not a vegetarian because I love animals; I am a vegetarian because I hate plants


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon May 15, 2006 6:14 pm 
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Gorilla

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RawAmbition - Lets say not necessarily supplementing with supplements but having a more wholesome diet and ensuring that the body is ABLE to optimally assimiliate protein by consumption of that diet.

Whether we need to consume "whole proteins" "isolate proteins" or "amino acids that convert to proteins". I dont know. I'd love to KNOW which of these absorb and FACILATE muscle growth and build up.. assuming enough triggers / loads have been set up by form of exercise.

Any ideas / suggestions?

PS:

I think at the base line I was told and thought that I was a hard gainer (ecto/ endo /meso.. I dont know) when I first worked out at the age of 16/17.

Then sometime at the age of 23 I started working out again and still did not see big gains.. hard gainer. paused for a while..

I'd shape up.. but not bulk up like others would.

(Most guys would tell me stupid things like..
eat lot of potatoes, eat a lot of butter, eat some chicken for protein etc)

Then at the age of 24 I worked out regularly 4 days a week, came back showered, cooked myself a lot of kidney, garbanzo, lentils and hogged on it.

Now, I dont think I necessarily ate a lot more the 3rd time. But Im not sure.

The thing is Ive always wondered what kind of a diet would be optimal for me at those times and would I have seen better results if I had a better diet?

I'd like to know this now that I am going to start once more.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon May 15, 2006 7:30 pm 
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Elephant

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"As we all know, muscle growth is a defensive mechanism, a reaction to physical stress placed upon it. We also know that "normal" (not from any external stimulus) muscle growth generally halts after we stop maturing. We need to generate "abnormal" amounts of stress upon our muscles (more stress than our bodies are conditioned to) and doing so, our bodies will respond."

I am eating an abnormal amount of food and my stomach is responding
;-)


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