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PostPosted: Thu Apr 13, 2006 8:23 pm 
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Elephant
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compassionategirl wrote:
would you eat a free range, compassionately reared (bla bla bla) chicken if it died of natural causes?


I wouldn't, but mainly because that's not very appetizing to me. If someone wanted to follow a wild chicken around, waiting for it to die of natural causes and then eat it, then I don't see anything wrong with that

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 13, 2006 8:42 pm 
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I'm not trying to argue with you, nor am I supporting "omni" views. I'm trying to play devil's advocate here, as well as providing a realistic view. I have exhausted myself trying to tell and show non-veggies the harm that is inflicted on these poor creatures, and all it does it make them want to become a veg even less. (Perhapd out of guilt? denial? who knows.) So, I've learned that instead of pushing someone to do something that they are not willing to do, I pursued them to at the very least choose a more "humane" form. While the ideal choice would be for them to NOT eat anything animal whatsoever, I know that the chances of this happening are slim to none. So, if they decide to continue eating the way that always eat, at least they wont be supporting factory farms. It's basically a case of what is the lesser of the two evils. None are a favorable choice, but it's a realistic one. I think a lot fo vegans (while their intentions are good), forget that most people can't and are unwilling to comprehend the truth of factory farms, animal cruelty, and animal exploitation. They can't think on the compassionate level that vegans are able to, no matter how much education we supply them. When this is the case, repeatedly badgering them with Vegan views, meet you meat, and statistics are only going to push them farther away. Thus, you have to sort of work with them and steer them in another direction and hope that they will figure it out on their own, in their own terms. Because only they can decide to become vegan... we can't decide for them.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 13, 2006 8:56 pm 
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or instead of wasting energies on welfare type change, you can engage in vegan outreach. In other words, if you are convinced that Joe aint gonna go vegan no matter what, move on to jane and convince jane to go vegan, instead of convicing Joe to go free range. And if jane is not going to bite than move on to Fred. And how do you know that joe aint gonna go vegan no matter what, and that by reluctantly encouraging free range, you have actually shot yourself in the foot because he would have gone vegan eventually? Many people initially display not only unwillingness, but vociferous defiance. Some of them though actually go vegan at some subsequent point. I think Crash had a signature quote once about the stages that Truth goes through....

There are potential VEGANS out there that will be vegan for life once they have that lightbulb moment. What serves animals better: wasting time and energy convincing Joe to go free range (which is many cases is a joke), or convincing Fred to go vegan?

Hard to say. : Both approaches have their drawbacks and their merits.

Okay, I think I have made my point - no need to keep reiterating.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 13, 2006 9:11 pm 
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I've tried your tactic and it doesn't work. Most people need baby-steps. Most people can't turn vegan overnight.... they need to slowly be "weaned" off animal products. I find that the majority of people who try to become vegan often resort back to their old ways b/c the change was too quick and too "drastic" for them. Thus, I've found that making small changes induces more lasting changes.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 13, 2006 9:50 pm 
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:? huh? Who said anything about turning people vegan overnight? I believe I stated that some people who became vegan were not only unwilling when they were first exposed to animal rights and/or veganism, but were vociferously defiant.

Furthermore, by encouraging/condoning (whatever you want to call it) somebody who is already highly unreceptive to veganism to "at least eat free range then", you are NOT "weaning them off" animal produce, so dont kid yourself. What you probably are doing though is cementing their "unveganness" even further by lulling their consciences into a false sense of "this is ethical, benign, etc".

:roll: okay i think im done here. No sense in debating with somebody who isnt going to even acknowledge the shortcomings of their arguments.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 14, 2006 1:29 am 
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I'm with Shelby and Will on this one. If the chickens aren't being hurt, I really can't see the harm in it....better than factory farming. Something is better than nothing.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 14, 2006 8:37 am 
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Elephant
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compassionategirl wrote:

Furthermore, by encouraging/condoning (whatever you want to call it) somebody who is already highly unreceptive to veganism to "at least eat free range then", you are NOT "weaning them off" animal produce, so dont kid yourself. What you probably are doing though is cementing their "unveganness" even further by lulling their consciences into a false sense of "this is ethical, benign, etc".



If someone I know decides to give up just red meat, or to start eating organic eggs instead of regular eggs, then I'm going to encourage them. It doesn't matter to me if that cements unveganess or not, because I don't really care about living up to vegan ethics. I just do what I think is right

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 14, 2006 2:11 pm 
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Quote:
okay i think im done here. No sense in debating with somebody who isnt going to even acknowledge the shortcomings of their arguments.


Ouch. That was kind of a low blow. :(


I am NOT one of those "radical" vegans. I know a few vegans who are like that and all it does it turn people further away from veganism.... or even vegetarianism. The best approach is to workwith them, not against them. I agree with what willpeavy said. Most people can only make small changes at a time. Any change (no matter how big or how small) is a step in the right direction.

Sometimes I feel like veganism is taken out of context and that the true goal of veganism is often lost. It seems it has turned almost into a war with the non-vegs against the vegs. Animal/enviromental/health reasons.... these are the goals. NOT to turn everyone we can into vegans just to increase the number of vegans out there. Force doesn't work... gentle persuasion, positive example, open guidance, and compassionate education is what DOES work. Babysteps.

I'm with Meggie and willpeavy on this one.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 15, 2006 1:53 pm 
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Elephant
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Quote:
I am NOT one of those "radical" vegans. I know a few vegans who are like that and all it does it turn people further away from veganism.... or even vegetarianism. The best approach is to workwith them, not against them. I agree with what willpeavy said. Most people can only make small changes at a time. Any change (no matter how big or how small) is a step in the right direction.

Sometimes I feel like veganism is taken out of context and that the true goal of veganism is often lost. It seems it has turned almost into a war with the non-vegs against the vegs. Animal/enviromental/health reasons.... these are the goals. NOT to turn everyone we can into vegans just to increase the number of vegans out there. Force doesn't work... gentle persuasion, positive example, open guidance, and compassionate education is what DOES work. Babysteps.

I'm with Meggie and willpeavy on this one.

Iggzactlee!!
People are eating too much animal products. This leads to two things:
1. They die of deseases. For me this is tragical and expensive.
2. Animals are packed into booths where they can't move.

Solution to 1:
Eat your greens.
Solution to 2:
Eat your greens and tell your politician (and your local farmer) that treating animals like this will not be tolerated.

If you behave like an a-hole all day long you're not working for the animals and you're not working for people. If this is your approach you might as well eat meat.
If you get 3 people to cut out 1/3 of their animal products you have effectively created one more vegan. If you get them to exchange this 1/3 of meals for broccoli and apples they will be healthier and less likely to die of heart disease. Everybody wins. It doesn't matter to the factory farmed animals wich way you choose (1 vegan or 3 1/3 vegans) as long as they don't die the horrible deaths and live the horrible lives they do today.
Hens hoppin' around in someones back yard is (according to me) not the place to start if you want animals to live better lives. In fact, it's a lot better if people ate the eggs of these hens than those of the zombie hens in the factory farms.

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 Post subject: Shelby is right
PostPosted: Sat Apr 15, 2006 2:16 pm 
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They are just "shells" and not actually their children. Plus I am biased since they are the best protein source I can find other than soy and that gets boring. Find a farm that has free rangers that run around happy all day. It's not that bad.
[/img]


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 15, 2006 4:57 pm 
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Stegosaurus

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see blue

Shelby wrote:
Quote:
okay i think im done here. No sense in debating with somebody who isnt going to even acknowledge the shortcomings of their arguments.


Ouch. That was kind of a low blow. :(

Sorry, but its true. Every single person hear advocating for a welfarist approach to animal rights has yet to acknowledge the limits of that approach, and the minor detail that after 50 years of welfarist type reforms, we have made very little progress in animal rights. And that is a fact. Therefore, I find it pointless to debate with people that refuse to consider the limits of what they are saying. I believe the term is tunnel - vision. I would also venture to guess you havent been an actual activist for very long, or you would understand the weakness of your arguments and acknowledge the difficulty of the welfare vs. rights conundrum

I am NOT one of those "radical" vegans. I know a few vegans who are like that and all it does it turn people further away from veganism.... or even vegetarianism. The best approach is to workwith them, not against them. I agree with what willpeavy said. Most people can only make small changes at a time. Any change (no matter how big or how small) is a step in the right direction.

I have no idea what your definition iof "radical" vegan is, but it sounds like you are saying that vegans who advocate nothing short of veganism, no matter how "gently", are radical vegans. I couldnt disagree more if that is indeed your definition of a "radical" vegan. The "radical" vegans (like say Francione, Lee Hall, etc. ) wouldnt consider me "radical" at all. Again, you say that people can make only small changes at a time, but you refuse to acknowledge the potential drawbacks of encouraging free range, not to mention the B** S*** that free range often really is. Few corporations that claim to produce free range eggs actually take "free range" seriously.


Sometimes I feel like veganism is taken out of context and that the true goal of veganism is often lost. It seems it has turned almost into a war with the non-vegs against the vegs. Animal/enviromental/health reasons.... these are the goals. NOT to turn everyone we can into vegans just to increase the number of vegans out there.

The true goal of ethical veganism is to end the commodification of animals. No, we dont turn people vegan "just for the sake of inreasing the number of vegans." Increasing the number of vegans, and thereby decreasing the number of non-vegans, reduces the demand for animal produce. No demand, no supply. No supply = a more sustainable agriculture, healthier planet, better human health, and no animal commodification.


Force doesn't work... gentle persuasion, positive example, open guidance, and compassionate education is what DOES work. Babysteps.

this is why I stopped debating this with you. Again, what are you going on about here? Who said anything about force (and by the way, some people DO respond to aggresive activism that gets to the point - but that is another thread). You speak of "Gentle persuasion, open guidance, and compassionate education." Again, who said anything to the contrary? Persuade people to go vegan gently, (not to go free range gently), openly guide them to go vegan, compassionately educate them about the reality of animal commodification and the illusion of free range. Gentle persuasion and compassionate education does NOT have to equal encouraging the illusion of free range!

YOu may want to read of Lee Hall's article on free - range. You can read it here: http://friendsofanimals.org/programs/ve ... -tales.php

I'm with Meggie and willpeavy on this one.
[url][/url]

Dont take any of the above personally Shelby, I still think you rock 8)

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People reviled today for their activism will be tomorrow's angels, and people respected today for their power will be tomorrow's demons. History will absolve us and condemn them. ~ Paul Watson


Last edited by compassionategirl on Sat Apr 15, 2006 6:07 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Shelby is right
PostPosted: Sat Apr 15, 2006 5:07 pm 
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Stegosaurus

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cjelement wrote:
They are just "shells" and not actually their children. Plus I am biased since they are the best protein source I can find other than soy and that gets boring. Find a farm that has free rangers that run around happy all day. It's not that bad.
[/img]


then try hemp. soy protein is not the only good source of plant based protein.

And, since you may be unaware, they are just "shells" containing the menstraul waste of a hen, as Shelby pointed out.

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People reviled today for their activism will be tomorrow's angels, and people respected today for their power will be tomorrow's demons. History will absolve us and condemn them. ~ Paul Watson


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Apr 15, 2006 5:13 pm 
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Stegosaurus

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willpeavy wrote:
compassionategirl wrote:

Furthermore, by encouraging/condoning (whatever you want to call it) somebody who is already highly unreceptive to veganism to "at least eat free range then", you are NOT "weaning them off" animal produce, so dont kid yourself. What you probably are doing though is cementing their "unveganness" even further by lulling their consciences into a false sense of "this is ethical, benign, etc".



If someone I know decides to give up just red meat, or to start eating organic eggs instead of regular eggs, then I'm going to encourage them. It doesn't matter to me if that cements unveganess or not, because I don't really care about living up to vegan ethics. I just do what I think is right



Huh? Will, I didnt expect you of all people to misunderstand me. Do you think that I am concerned with "living up to vegan ethics," or do you think that my position stems more from my desire to end animal commodification. telling people to eat free range can be counterproductive to the latter goal.

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People reviled today for their activism will be tomorrow's angels, and people respected today for their power will be tomorrow's demons. History will absolve us and condemn them. ~ Paul Watson


Last edited by compassionategirl on Sat Apr 15, 2006 5:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 15, 2006 5:41 pm 
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Stegosaurus

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"Free range and other tall tales".....


http://friendsofanimals.org/programs/ve ... -tales.php

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People reviled today for their activism will be tomorrow's angels, and people respected today for their power will be tomorrow's demons. History will absolve us and condemn them. ~ Paul Watson


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Apr 15, 2006 7:44 pm 
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Rabbit

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Posts: 190
Quote:
Iggzactlee!!
People are eating too much animal products. This leads to two things:
1. They die of deseases. For me this is tragical and expensive.
2. Animals are packed into booths where they can't move.

Solution to 1:
Eat your greens.
Solution to 2:
Eat your greens and tell your politician (and your local farmer) that treating animals like this will not be tolerated.

If you behave like an a-hole all day long you're not working for the animals and you're not working for people. If this is your approach you might as well eat meat.
If you get 3 people to cut out 1/3 of their animal products you have effectively created one more vegan. If you get them to exchange this 1/3 of meals for broccoli and apples they will be healthier and less likely to die of heart disease. Everybody wins. It doesn't matter to the factory farmed animals wich way you choose (1 vegan or 3 1/3 vegans) as long as they don't die the horrible deaths and live the horrible lives they do today.
Hens hoppin' around in someones back yard is (according to me) not the place to start if you want animals to live better lives. In fact, it's a lot better if people ate the eggs of these hens than those of the zombie hens in the factory farms.

I couldn't agree wit you more. Every little change is a BIG step towards ending animal cruelty and promoting health. Couldn't have said it better myself.

Compassionategirl: I'm not trying to argue with you. While we have the same morals and goals, we have different ways of going about it. That's perfectly fine! If your tactic works for you, then that's awesome! For me, it didn't work doing it like you are. So, I'm trying a different angle and it seems to work better in my case. Of course I would love it if everyone became vegan or even a veg, but if I can convince someone to make even a small change, then I feel like I have accomplished a goal. With small changes come bigger changes. Sure, it takes more time, but the end result is usually long-lasting. I'd rather have the person make the conscious effort to change on their OWN behalf, instead of because of me nearly forcing the idea into their head. Oftentimes, the results don't last is that method is used. However, it's all individual.

As for the CF/FR/organic farms, sure.... some aren't what they preach.... but a lot of them are. And I would rather have someone support those than support factory farms.

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