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 Post subject: Re: I'm afraid to try creatine
PostPosted: Thu Oct 13, 2011 6:08 pm 
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I appreciate the different viewpoint as well, PF - just because we don't necessarily agree does not mean we're not for the same end mission, however, we do see things in different shades on this issue.

precision female wrote:
I'm prepared to suffer (and die) for what I beleive in ...that's the difference...other people draw the line at the idea that they might actually suffer themselves and justify reasons they shouldn't have to.


Well, a main difference here is that, just as I value the lives of other sentient beings, I also value my own life and the fact that I have a host of people who depend on my existence for their own well-being as well (wife, employees, family, cats, etc.) While the notion of suffering for my beliefs if I truly believe in them is fair, I'm not just suffering myself by denying medication, but I also would be increasing the hardships of all those who rely on me as well. The fact is, it would be selfish as well to say "Hey, I'm going to need you to help me around when I lose 90% of my vision, I may no longer be able to employ you when I can no longer work, and I will now require you all to provide care for me when I can no longer care well for myself." There is more to the whole picture than just the consideration of animals lost in the past, there is also a great deal of concern on my part for those who need me now, both human and animal, and those who will need me to be at my functional best in the future.

precision female wrote:
Imagine your own child being experimented on - tortured and killed - so that you could take a medicine.


But, this is under assumption that we have a choice in animal testing at this time. There is none, sadly, and that is just how it goes. I did not ask for animal testing to happen any more than I asked for the afflictions that have changed my life drastically. Would you tell someone dying of cancer who may need chemo that it is their better purpose to accept a painful death because their drugs were animal-tested and that they need to forego their own existence to make an ethical stance on something that can't be undone? Where do we draw the line on what we can and can't take for proper health based on vegan ethics? Where in the basic tenets of veganism does it state that we need to consider shortening our own lives for our ethics?

precision female wrote:
Maybe if people started dying because they refused animal tested drugs then they'd start making drugs vegan and not animal tested...but that's what it would take for drastic changes to the system...some of us will need to suffer/die to make it happen. I wouldn't consider my life wasted.


If thousands and thousands of people decided to forego life-saving medications to die for their ethics and made a public spectacle of it, maybe then something would happen. However, a few vegans seen as giving up medications to make an ethical standpoint will succeed in one thing and one thing only - making the movement look "crazy", and reinforcing the stance to most people that it's a lifestyle that what we do is so far off what they'd consider, it will only marginalize veganism further. Remember those stories about "vegan" parents who ended up killing their children through malnutrition due to their inability to know how to properly feed their babies? It would become another one of those situations overnight, creating more fodder for the non-vegans to make us look insane.

precision female wrote:
Forcing an animal to live a short, miserable, excruciating life so that I don't have to is wrong. The animal experiences terror and pain just the same way I do. It too only has one life that it gets to live in this world. I don't deserve happiness or health more than it does and if bad luck has stuck me with whatever illness then that is my own bad luck. Just because I can steal an innocent animals happiness and health, and everyone else is stealing it, doesn't make it ok.


But, this is being said on assumption that every time you were to medicate a condition, an animal somewhere is being killed each time you take a pill, receive an injection, or whatever it may be. That's far too broad, and not factually accurate. Yes, when medications are tested, due to current mandates, animals are unfortunately still used and killed for research and data. However, not all medications are being tested over and over and over again on a constant daily/weekly/monthly/yearly basis, it is not necessarily a continual requirement on everything. Now, say a medication that could vastly improve your health had been tested during the clinical study phases a decade ago, but had not been tested since that time. In such a case, the damage is done, and cannot be undone by avoiding taking such a medication. I am not saying this to excuse what had been done to create it - it is simply fact. No amount of self-inflicted suffering by avoidance of that medication can resurrect an animal life lost to that testing. So, if that is the case, what is to be gained by avoiding such a medication? Will people walk past you and instantly know that you're making an ethical standpoint while you suffer silently? How will that change hearts and minds of others? That's ultimately the core of my question - I do understand the great desire to not be connected to cruelty any more than need be, but also, by driving, by using electricty, by having shelter that was created for us, by merely walking outside, something had to die for it. And things will continue to be killed for our own day-to-day existence whether we like it or not - we just tend to overlook the hundreds of examples that aren't made a spectacle of, while things like medications and the processes used to create them get more attention. I mean, we could talk about the thousands of field mice and other creatures that are killed during the harvesting of vegetable crops, but following the logic of not being connected to cruelty in any way, we'd have to stop eating altogether if we put it all on the same plane. That's why I don't think we can be completely sweeping about some situations, because we are all hypocrites in some way with veganism, we still unfortunately have to bring about suffering so we can live the way we're accustom to.

precision female wrote:
If people want to make their difference to the world by not eating animals and being happy healthy people inspiring others meanwhile taking antidepressants, headache, arthritis or whatever meds that have caused just as much animal misery as slaughterhouses I think its only 50%.


So, despite my eating/living vegan for over a decade, starting a business that serves the vegan community, and avoiding non-essential medications except for two that have allowed me to continue to exist without being in misery and allow me to function, that's only 50% good? I have to say, that's a pretty offensive statement to make. I know many people like to tweak the definition of veganism to suit their own emotional needs the way that it makes them feel like they're doing things properly, but you do have to understand, it's simply YOUR personal interpretation and not that of the general movement. And, I do not mean to sound rude, but such an attitude will turn more people away from going vegan than it will to convert people to it.

precision female wrote:
You can influence others with your body and diet, that's fantastic...but you an also lead by example of compassionate self sacrifice - which really gets peoples attention and makes them think. They won't follow...they're conditioned to care only of themselves and block out the screaming of a mutilated animal...but at least they will think.


I personally don't know anyone who was ever attracted to veganism for the glory of personal suffering and self-flagellation over the sins of their past for living a non-vegan lifestyle, or for the sins of others who committed atrocities against animals that were without their knowledge and under factors beyond their control. Most non-vegans I speak with think that it's the ultimate self sacrifice to have to give up cheese - try telling those same people that to be TRULY compassionate, they may need to let themselves die in agony one day in order to make a stand. :wink: Those I know who were drawn to it were attracted primarily because they love animals and wanted to reduce suffering to the greatest extent they could within reason. Not everyone who loves the animals and wants to reduce suffering is willing to perform self-sacrifice for their ideals, just as most who claim to hold certain ideals in high regard are not willing to die for other agendas as well. It's not a sign of not caring enough about the animals - it's simply that we're all only human, and we aren't all on the same page about believing that self-sacrifice is the highest form of commitment we can make. Because, after all, once you've sacrificed yourself, you can't do any more good for the movement... :wink:

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 Post subject: Re: I'm afraid to try creatine...
PostPosted: Fri Oct 14, 2011 1:52 pm 
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Precision Female
Creatine did give me a caffeine type buzz when I first started it, but that went away in a few days.

As for the ethical debate you have going in this thread (sorry jumping in a little late):
I look at animals as people, just non-human people and should be treated in a similar way as we treat another person.
Do we kill and eat other people? No...
Do we enslave women to product milk and kill their babies so we start the milk cycle over again? No.
Do we dress in dead people's skins? Use their body parts in our product? Enslave them to their death? Exploit them without remorse? Do medical testing on other people? No, no, no, no and no!
There is no real scientific evidence that animal are all that difference than us, they have the same emotions, pains, fears, joys, and happiness as us.
Yes, we can't directly communicate with animal like other people and their cognitive processes may be difference, but it seems that way with other people sometimes too.

With that being said, I try not to worry about other people's happiness or lack of, or do I try to help every person I meet... Why? Because most people don't want (or need) my help, and will tell me to just go away if I butt in their business.
I use this approach with animals. I think the best way to make animals happy is to stop exploiting them and just leave them alone, (in the wild) they are more than capable to finding their own happiness just like most people are.

There are some cases when an animal clearly needs my help, and of course I will help them, this is the same with some people as well.

I don't really see animal as my children or other people as my children either.

Kenny


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 Post subject: Re: I'm afraid to try creatine...
PostPosted: Sat Oct 15, 2011 1:56 am 
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There’s too much here to respond too…I guess I’ll do with some random points.

Not being able to change the past or feeling hopeless to change the future has long been an excuse to not do anything and an excuse to not care or feel the appropriate guilt for things.

Determining my life to be more valuable than another is greedy. We’ve been conditioned to think ourselves superior and more worthy of life. That does not make it true.

Despite my extreme beliefs, nobody considers me crazy… knowing I won’t change anyone else’s beliefs is not an excuse to not say anything or not live my life according to my values. I will let cancer take me if I get it. Not a martyr…just doing what’s right. Of course nobody is going to follow my idea because they want to suffer and be miserable. IF anyone followed my lead its because they would value and admire living true to their morals and heart, and they’d see that the value of that is greater than their own health or happiness. A realization that their own health and happiness is less important than the rest of the world.

I cry also for the animals I stop to move off the road and all the others killed by human activity, I have cradled what’s left of them in my arms, the world is entirely unacceptable to me and I want no part of it, there is no happiness here except for those who don’t want to acknowledge what goes on around them. And people are good at that. But there is a small difference.... those animals mentioned by Petitpois weren't born with the sole purpose of suffering for our greed which is the case with most lab animals.

No individual is responsible for animal testing, but as a collective we are 100% responsible and every person looks around and says "well everyone else is supporting it so I shouldn't have to make a sacrifice to make a difference". Each person putting blame on anyone but themselves. Nobody willing to feel any guilt for their part of it.

A person choosing to take a med that literally saves their life I understand the reasoning but disagree with the action...taking a med that animals died to make for anything non life threatening is unnecessary cruelty. What bothers me most is people don't feel an appropriate amount of guilt for the pain they cause (or support) because they choose to stay in denial, or blame others. Which makes it really easy to keep doing it. If people actually saw and acknowledged what's really involved with a bottle of painkillers they'd feel so guilty and disgusted they'd choose not to buy it and suffer instead - which would result in the birth of more ethical medicines.

On some occasions I have to use a product that has animal involvement and there's no way around it. But at least I feel the appropriate guilt, I think about the animals...see their eyes...I hear them suffer... it isn't a mindless decision...and that causes me to keep my animal involved choices to an extreme minimum (vegan would be an understatement for my lifestyle) and come up with alternatives.
If people felt the appropriate guilt imagine how that would fuel them to live differently and treat others and animals with respect and love.

Of course nobody can be 100% vegan…but that’s not an excuse to not try harder to achieve 100%. Diet is only a small part of that effort. A million people making a difference had to start somewhere with an idea from only one or a few people.

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 Post subject: Re: I'm afraid to try creatine...
PostPosted: Sat Oct 15, 2011 2:31 pm 
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I clicked on this post because I am also hesitant to try creatine and was curious about others' experiences. I don't have my answer to that yet. But, I want to toss in my 2 cents on the medication issue. I completely understand the desire to not give one penny to a company that has has conducted animal testing. I mourn for the nightmarish sufferingthese animals have been forced to endure. I go out of my way to never exploit any person or animal or condone/ reward that exploitation.
Also: The animal rights movement needs strong, effective, awesome people. We are so small-- we need every person who cares about these babies. To take yourself out of this movement, to make yourself ineffective, is hurting animals by allowing their exploitation and their suffering to flourish. You are obviously very committed and compassionate. To lose you is a tragedy.
You are willing to suffer for the animals-- then suffer through handing out veg starter kits and risking ridicule, or through attending protests regardless of weather or distance, or through going undercover in labs/ slaughterhouses/ etc to catch video that may make the next person go vegan and prosecute the abusers. You are capable of so much. Don't suffer for your ideals without making a positive impact!
Hugs!!

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 Post subject: Re: I'm afraid to try creatine...
PostPosted: Sat Oct 15, 2011 9:15 pm 
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:)

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Last edited by Belle.le.disko on Mon Oct 24, 2011 12:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: I'm afraid to try creatine...
PostPosted: Sun Oct 16, 2011 8:27 pm 
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Again, I certainly appreciate hearing back on your thoughts, even if we're seeing from different perspectives. Just a few last points -

precision female wrote:
Determining my life to be more valuable than another is greedy. We’ve been conditioned to think ourselves superior and more worthy of life. That does not make it true.


So, though animals in the wild have instinct for self-preservation and may do things that require unfortunate actions to happen in order to self-preserve, why is it wrong for humans to do so if it is actually, truly necessary for existence? Why must we suffer and die early for ethics? Why must our ethics be the first and most important factor in where our lives go in all aspects and that the world must bend to them, or we forego everything that isn't in 100% alignment? As an example again, try telling the mother of 4 young children that she should forego chemo and let herself fall victim to a fatal disease so she can make an ethical standpoint that isn't actually saving animals by refusing treatment, and I think you'll find that she won't agree with you. Nor will her children. Nor will her family and friends. Compassion needs to extend to ALL beings, people included, and I've had a real eye-opener in seeing how many vegans tend to forget that humans are animals, too, and suffer just like anything else does. When we begin to simply say "Well, humans are different, they know better, so screw 'em if they do things in a way I don't think is in line with my ethics", we lose compassion and fall victim to misanthropy.

I can certainly see it being compared to when people ridicule Jehovah's Witnesses for refusing blood transfusions that could easily save lives - I've yet to hear anyone who is not part of that religion say "Good for them, they died early but it was for their faith and conviction that their ethics were right, I want to be like that, too!" I see the same thing for what would happen in a situation being done for vegan ethics as well, people shaking their heads at the notion of early death to make a statement.

precision female wrote:
No individual is responsible for animal testing, but as a collective we are 100% responsible and every person looks around and says "well everyone else is supporting it so I shouldn't have to make a sacrifice to make a difference". Each person putting blame on anyone but themselves. Nobody willing to feel any guilt for their part of it.


But why does that mean those who may be in need NOW must forego what is available for treatment to be "ethical" and die early simply because we haven't yet come to a better way of creating treatments without animal experimentation? You have to understand, I had to do a LOT of soul searching to take the medications I have to in order to function. It isn't as if I rolled over, said "screw it" to that which I've believed in for over a deacde and thereby dropped all standards to which I adhere. It isn't as if I started eating meat the next day because if I was going to make one concession, I may as well let it all slide. That's the slippery slope you've been on with much of the discussion - you are viewing it from an all-or-nothing stance as if anything less than striving for purity is failure. In all other ways I still remain vegan, so you have to understand that myself and others in such situations will take offense to feeling as if we're pariahs because we don't revel in suffering so we can die sooner than later but have a clear consceince in one small area of our lives. I am ONLY responsible for my own life and what I can do to help others - I am not part of "the collective" in being able to control the will of the masses around me to do things in a more compassionate way than I am for controlling the weather; I can try to influence others via my attitudes and actions, but I can't control them, and I don't wish to do so. I think that the assumptive mindset you have in that anyone who may not live to your ideals is doing things out of "greed" (in always believing they're more important than others) or some other similar emotion is not on base for accuracy, and is divisive. Of course, you can feel as you wish, but it's assumptive, and not factual, made moreso to reinforce personal beliefs than to see from another perspective and have empathy for others who are not 100% on the same page.

precision female wrote:
A person choosing to take a med that literally saves their life I understand the reasoning but disagree with the action...taking a med that animals died to make for anything non life threatening is unnecessary cruelty.


Again, let me hope that you do not have to suffer through anything that forces you to make a decision on whether to die in pain and suffering or fight to live via things that may not be 100% in line with your mindset. What you also are not considering is that, animals do fight to live through the most dire of circumstances - when faced with pain or suffering, they don't immediately roll over to die without fighting to exist. Why should we simply call it quits because we may be more 'evolved'?

precision female wrote:
What bothers me most is people don't feel an appropriate amount of guilt for the pain they cause (or support) because they choose to stay in denial, or blame others.


When I first went vegan some 11 years ago, I was practically paralyzed in learning what I did about animal use, abuse, exploitation and experimentation. To the point where, for a while, I was so enraged, sad, terrified and confused that I was pretty much ineffectual for doing good for the animals in any real way, I was purely lost in the new reality which I had finally been brought to see that was going on around me. Some of us simply cannot spend every moment of the day pondering suffering and letting raw emotion guide our every move - for me, it increases my depression, leads to being ineffectual, and does not do a whole lot of good. I do not identify my sole existence as "to alleviate the suffering of others" as my one and only purpose on earth, so I can't keep that as my #1 thought every waking moment. I'm not the reincarnation of Mother Theresa. When I'm stuck in a quagmire of raw emotion that holds me hostage, I do nothing. Well, except stay in bed for days on end and refuse to leave the house. While I may be considering the suffering of everything around me more than ever during such times, I'm not doing anything productive for the animals or those who I care for when I'm in such a mindstate. Good on you if you can handle that each and every waking moment, but while my compassion for all beings is with me every moment, it is not that which defines my existence to where I am here for it above all else and will force myself to suffer more to make it my constant thought. It's not a lack of compassion, it's a matter of practicality to be able to exist.

precision female wrote:
On some occasions I have to use a product that has animal involvement and there's no way around it.


So, let me get this straight - you would feel guilt and use a computer [for example, as that's what is going on at the moment here] that you know probably had animal-based materials in the components even though it is non-essential for your life (no matter how much someone wants to claim such technology is essential, it certainly is not), but simultaneously are saying that it's selfish to take a life-saving medication. I think you may have a bit more soul-searching to do on this one, it seems a rather backward and doesn't really hold water. You truly can't use optional things or partake in modern civilization's ways and be okay with it other than feeling guilt, but then condemn those who would do something out of life-saving necessity. It simply doesn't add up.

Again, it has been interesting discussing this - I'm not doing so in any attempt to be mean or create any hard feelings, I'm just curious to know how you perceive things in the way you do.

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 Post subject: Re: I'm afraid to try creatine...
PostPosted: Mon Oct 17, 2011 3:41 am 
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precision female wrote:
I will let cancer take me if I get it. Not a martyr…just doing what’s right.


Let me guess, you've never had a serious life threatening illness, right? Perhaps it's not intentional but your attitude here is extremely condescending.

I just want to give a big '+1' to everything VeganEssentials has said on this thread.


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 Post subject: Re: I'm afraid to try creatine...
PostPosted: Tue Oct 18, 2011 4:27 am 
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Wow! You guys are really going for it here aren't you! Just going back to the origional topic a bit.... Creatine shouldn't really cause you any problems if you only take a small dose. 5g a day should be enough. Side efects often spoken about with creatine are when people are loading it and take much larger doses. In my opinion creatine doesn't affect your energy levels or moods. My boyfriend is bipolar but he doesn't medicate anyore. However, he has to be careful to watch his consumption of sugar as it affects his mood, and since I've been living with him I've come to realise that it's often sugar imbalances which make you aggressive and unsable and causes panic attacks and the like. So, low GI foods and 5g of creatine a day should be fine. Maybe you could start with just 2.5g and see how it goes, I'm sure you'll hardly notice and you could work up bit by bit to 5g stopping if you have any adverse efects.
Just an aside, I took creatine for years and while I got a great pump during my workouts, that's the only thing I really noticed. Also, unfortunately, you need to take it with sugar for it to be effective. This kind of insulin spike will stop muscle growth dead in its tracks if you put it into your post workout shake and can also have negative effects immediately pre workout, so be careful about your timing if you decide to use creatine.

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 Post subject: Re: I'm afraid to try creatine...
PostPosted: Sun Nov 06, 2011 12:59 pm 
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Understanding me is simple… I value the lives of animals and humans equally if they have the ability to suffer equally. And accept that my own life, is less important than the rest of the world.

This debate has erupted because I’m defending my decision not to medicate for serious illness. What I’m saying is in my defense…not to convert or condemn others. Agreed there is no intent to create hard feelings.

James, it is through serious illness and near death experience, and the knowledge that I will be near death again without medications, that I have come to put so much thought into this topic.

I like this scenario with the mother and 4 kids. Perfect example! It misses the animal perspective...convincing the mother to die isn't the point. Its impossible that she would want to. Can you see that convincing mice to consent to being tortured, infected with disease, decapitated and thrown in the garbage... creatures with equal ability to suffer, is also impossible?...yet we have never respected their lives, mindlessly condemn them to suffer and die for us, and invent ways to justify it, ignoring their obvious vote that they would not consent. It is not ok. None of those mice are ok. No matter how many mothers with 4 kids are dying! It not any more right to use mice than forcing her own 4 children to give their bodies/lives for her to live. Why is only human compassion considered in this scenario when the mice are equally deserving of compassion.

EARLY DEATH...how interesting that we call natural death "early" to imply its wrong. Humans don't naturally have a life expectancy to 100...we have been cheating death - abusing other species to get it - and the norm is now a LATE death. A person should have the right to choose to live their natural life…mind boggling to me that we don’t. As soon as I’m unconscious I lose my right to refuse medications. Nobody should shake their head in sadness at a person choosing a natural ethical life. Its sad we’ve adopted that way of thinking.
Jehovah is a large group of people. It gives me hope that Jehovahs can stick to their morals...maybe others could do it as well.

By foregoing the unethical medications available now, a person creates the need to develop non-animal treatments…I think I already mentioned that. Yes…sad truth that it would come at a human price.
People doing things out of greed...I've come to that conclusion based on peoples real actions toward animals...where is my logic flawed? Nobody likes to think in their mind or say they are greedy...(nobody wants or intends to be greedy...I agree with that) We invent other ways to think about it in our heads to escape the guilt…usually by ignoring or being in denial of the reality of the pain we cause. But actions speak louder than words and thoughts. How do you think it looks to the animals? Might they see us as greedy stealing their lives without their consent for our benefit?

Animals fight when wounded...with their bodies and minds...but they don't farm and abuse other species. I support people to fight with their bodies and minds also...to the fullest extent that they can without condemning something else to die for them.

I said before I understand why a person takes a life saving med…I just disagree with it. Really my beef is more with non essential medications...like for headaches, arthritis, sexual dysfunction...all those things we don't need...just want. At least if we eat an animal its meat keeps us alive...there is more honour in that than using an animal to test cough syrup that soothes us through a very minor pain.

My realization of our cruel existence and resulting depression/anxiety has fueled enormous change and reduction of my impact on animal cruelty. It causes suffering for my personal life yes...but alleviates suffering for the rest of the world, which is more important.

I said before I'm not 100% perfect. I am not ok other than feeling guilt. I'm not above or immune to my own criticism of humans. I say "we" becasue I am part of it too. I do what I can to limit my cruelty impact..an ongoing process of making changes/sacrifices...and that means no medications among other things, and I thought - being on a vegan website - that decisions I make to not be part of animal cruelty would be respected rather than get the usual lecture that I SHOULD and MUST take meds and its ok to torture animals if its in the name of "compassion". But I was wrong.

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 Post subject: Re: I'm afraid to try creatine...
PostPosted: Tue Nov 08, 2011 3:21 pm 
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I like this scenario with the mother and 4 kids. Perfect example! It misses the animal perspective...convincing the mother to die isn't the point. Its impossible that she would want to. Can you see that convincing mice to consent to being tortured, infected with disease, decapitated and thrown in the garbage... creatures with equal ability to suffer, is also impossible?...yet we have never respected their lives, mindlessly condemn them to suffer and die for us, and invent ways to justify it, ignoring their obvious vote that they would not consent. It is not ok. None of those mice are ok. No matter how many mothers with 4 kids are dying! It not any more right to use mice than forcing her own 4 children to give their bodies/lives for her to live. Why is only human compassion considered in this scenario when the mice are equally deserving of compassion.

Well, it's not because you eat a drug that a mouse will be tortured. The drug is not made out of the dead carcass of an abused animal and then packaged. So taking that drug will not create more or less harm or suffering (it has been done in the past). The problem is financial support of an industry we don't want to support.

And I still don't understand why animal testing & medication is so intense in your point of view... you would accept to die rather than to be taking a drug tested on animals. But what about food? The harvest might most likely have killed some animals, and not to mention that organic food are grown with animal products (from their shit to their blood or bones). Do you try to eat ONLY vegan organic food?

Quote:
Nobody should shake their head in sadness at a person choosing a natural ethical life.

You are writing this on a plastic molded keyboard made out of petrol thanks to the "non-natural" science and technology of humans... you say that you choose to live a "natural" life?

I think that a good vegan is a dead vegan. If you really want to be a consequent vegan : kill yourself, now. There is no alternative to living with zero animal exploitation in our modern world, and there is no distinction between medication, food or clothing. None is the most problematic, the problem is general and called "speciesim". That's what we have to fight in my opinion.


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 Post subject: Re: I'm afraid to try creatine...
PostPosted: Tue Nov 08, 2011 4:45 pm 
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Petitpois wrote:
If you really want to be a consequent vegan : kill yourself, now


And then you cause pain and suffering to your friends, family and loved ones

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Life is 10% what happens to us and 90% of how we react to it. Our Attitude towards life determines life's attitude towards us.


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 Post subject: Re: I'm afraid to try creatine...
PostPosted: Tue Nov 08, 2011 7:54 pm 
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Gorilla
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Posts: 532
Location: Sunshine Coast, Queensland, Australia
James wrote:
precision female wrote:
I will let cancer take me if I get it. Not a martyr…just doing what’s right.


Let me guess, you've never had a serious life threatening illness, right? Perhaps it's not intentional but your attitude here is extremely condescending.

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 Post subject: Re: I'm afraid to try creatine...
PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2011 9:22 am 
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Finch

Joined: Sun Nov 06, 2011 4:26 am
Posts: 6
As far as creatine goes, I would start with 2g plus 1g of sodium bicarbonate - reportedly this way creatine is better absorbed and needs no loading phase - and then slowly increase according to what feels right for you.
Reportedly "Creapure" is vegan - and is available inexpensive too. Kre-Alkalyn might be good too - it has already an alkalising agent in it.
Your fears are only justified if it is taken in large doses.

Petitpois wrote:
...
I can't stop animal testing, even if I boycott those companies it will not change anything for the animals...

Of course, an individual doesn't change anything by boycotting.
On the other hand, those companies are testing animals only because of individuals, who are buying their products.
So which other way than boycott is there to change this?
They are far too rich and powerful for change via politics.

I understand the positions of both "parties" here, as both have good reasons for their points of view.
That's why it is important to respect each others morale.
This is not a matter of who's right or wrong, but of personal preference, what feels right and probably even of individual (genetic?) disposition.


@ precision female,
You deserve the highest respect for your ethics and attitude.
It is ridiculous to say that you're being selfish for avoiding the pain of feeling guilty.
Doing what feels right is the only way how life works, as it is being truthful towards oneself.
Go for it as long as you can bear it. resp. as long as it feels right for you.

However, the question is also, what is healthy and where starts a psychosis.
I would say, healthy is to stay within a "happy medium" or, we need to worry or to feel guilty for a healthy awareness and conscience.

But if you "see and hear those animals 24/7", this is doing you unnecessary harm.
It's just as imbalanced and unhealthy as a 24/7 "automatic shut off to not think about things that are too traumatic/disturbing to think about".
Both are extremes, which cause a system to become screwed up.

Just as some food for thought, there is a quote from a Dan Zadra:
"Worry is a misuse of imagination."

It would be preferable to treat your impairing PTSD, and to work on the causes of your depressions - I hope you can get an adequate psychological therapy.

Are you getting enough sleep and recreation?
I may be wrong, but I'm getting the impression that your health is suffering from too much pressure and/or other stresses, either from people around you or from yourself.

Could you improve your diet?

And what about natural remedies?
You should be able to get vegan versions of the following possible antidepressants, e.g.:
- St. John's Wort
- Mucuna pruriens
- Kava
- Coca
- 5-HTP

In possible cases of deficiency - as in situations of stress the body needs some extra nutrients:
- EPA
- Folate
- Iron
- Vitamin B12, B5, B6 and D
- SAM-e
- Phenylalanine
- Inositol

You probably have to experiment to find out which work for you - unless you can find some sort of a physician, who is into such treatments.
More suggestions and information you can find e.g. at http://www.raysahelian.com/depression.html.

All the best
manoka


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 Post subject: Re: I'm afraid to try creatine...
PostPosted: Wed Nov 23, 2011 3:47 am 
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Rabbit
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Joined: Wed Sep 14, 2011 1:43 am
Posts: 175
Location: Nelson, BC
I don't remember saying anything about a natural life....I was talking about having a right to choose a natural death without ridicule...

The difference between animals suffering for meds and animals dying out it the corn fields is the cruelty intent, we purposely torture the lab animals, and farm them, and they spend their lives in cages. Mice in the corn fields get a natural free life and aren't intentionally killed but its sad that it happens. Personally I find cornfield deaths just as tragic. But its the human intent to harm that makes me really angry.

My physical health, and life in general is actually amazing....abnormal for someone not doing well in spirit. I'm high functioning despite how I feel. Diet etc not a problem. Taking vega 100% of everything vitamin stuff etc so I'm covered there... intense 3hr workouts every day and my body shows it. Nobody in real life knows what I think or that I'm depressed. I have a great job that pays extremely well, live in my dream house in the mountains with a big garden...my external/physical life itself is perfect.

I've been in therapy (numerous different therapies) most of my life for PTSD/depression etc. They actually told me finally that they can't help me if I won't take medications and accept main stream society's way of thinking. I completely agree 100% a good vegan is a dead one and I battle that every day. Battle to justify staying alive...not whether I think its right to kill myself.

I don't avoid the pain of feeling guilty at all...guilt affects everything in my life.

The suffering of family and friends is incredibly minor in comparison to the reduction in animal suffering my death would have. A dozen people cry for a week or 2 versus thousands of animals not suffering in a multitude of ways becasue of my existence for the next 50 years...(and I know my brother would be stoked to get my motorcycle)...it seems like logic to me...I don't favor my life or any human life over an animal life...they're equal.

There are masses of people out there making a difference to animals...one less body in the crowd won't have much affect on outcome. If I was someone like Robert, or Vegan essentials maybe I'd debate whether I can help more animals than I hurt...but I'm not a person with much influence or power.

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 Post subject: Re: I'm afraid to try creatine...
PostPosted: Wed Nov 23, 2011 5:23 am 
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Finch

Joined: Sun Nov 06, 2011 4:26 am
Posts: 6
What if all the depressed people would work on changing whatever causes their depressions, instead of just changing their brain chemistry with chemical drugs?

I believe they (or we) have many of these causes in common. With combined strength and efforts a desperately needed change could be brought about.

Why do we allow a minority of rich and powerful to get their way on the expense of the majority?

But first we should get our priorities straight. We need balance and stability in the systems, a materialism-, capitalism- and socialism within sensible and healthy limits, and not on the expense of a sound nature and of our true quality of life.

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Failure is the mother of success. - Failure is not falling down but refusing to get up. -- Chinese Proverbs
Failure is success if we learn from it. -- Malcolm S. Forbes
Failure is the tuition you pay for success. -- Walter Brunell
If you are not big enough to lose, you are not big enough to win. -- Walter Reuther
If you have made mistakes, there is always another chance for you. You may have a fresh start any moment you choose, for this thing we call 'failure' is not the falling down, but the staying down. -- Mary Pickford
The greatest barrier to success is the fear of failure. -- Sven Goran Eriksson
When we begin to take our failures non-seriously, it means we are ceasing to be afraid of them. It is immense importance to learn to laugh at ourselves. -- Katherine Mansfield
If there exists no possibility of failure, then victory is meaningless. -- Robert H. Schuller
There is No Failures, Only Feedbacks!
The only real failure in life is the failure to try.
There are no secrets to success. It is the result of preparation, hard work, and learning from failure. -- Colin Powell
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Through trial and error we learn and grow.


Last edited by manoka on Thu Nov 24, 2011 10:01 am, edited 2 times in total.

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