Vegan Bodybuilding & Fitness

For anyone who knows about Dr.McDougall and his diet, what are your opinions ?
I have been eating high amounts of starch lately ( ex: potatoes + rice ) along side of veggies and fruit. I have been having
tons of energy and i feel great, clearer mind actually. Also, I have not gained a pound, I would say I'm losing weight while being
satisfied after every meal.

I'd not heard of him till I read your post. Watched a few of the videos on his website ... (he has free lectures on the left hand column) and I am in agreement with what he talks about. Personally I love my carbs - I've never tried to change that and I've never had a real problem with my weight. I do try to eat them with lots of veggies tho and as of late I've been forcing myself to try more whole grains instead of the mmm... white stuff (for protein content).

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If it's important to you, you'll find a way. If it isn't, you'll find an excuse.

I follow Dr. McDougall and my diet is starch based. I used to eat mostly legumes (starches also) but then I got into pasta, rice, and now potatoes. I eat all four at any given day, as long as I'm getting my carbs in through those, the protein and fat come along just perfectly.

I also noticed on another post you said you were a ketchup junky. If you used hunt's, it's just tomatoes and sugar. That's not a big deal to me but may be to those with a sugar phobia. I don't see anything wrong with slowly cutting it out.

I've actually cut it almost completely out myself. Tomato sauce makes a fantastic addition to most any starch and the possibilities of preparation and spicing are ENDLESS!

A couple weekends ago I decided to have a "splurge" weekend (which really wasn't NEEDED, just an idea to do something different) and have some hot dogs. So I got some meatless dogs, vegan hotdog buns, etc, and some fries.

I think the fries were the mistake. Got a big ole painful zit on my nose and horrible heartburn which people say they get after they've eaten something oily/fatty after not having it a while. hahah

So yea if I'm spreading ketchup on anything in the future it will be just potatoes, period!

Just get that concentrated fat out of your diet and you are one huge step ahead!

Edit: Forgot to mention corn. I eat SWEET CORN (white/non-GMO) by the POUND!!!

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High carb, low fat, whole foods. Any questions?

starch and carbs in general are the best food for humans... or at least for me. Fats are evil;)

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My progress pics: http://www.veganbodybuilding.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=48&t=21924
My training diary: http://www.veganbodybuilding.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=22216

Good advice on the ketchup. Tomato sauce is a good idea, it goes well with everything... just like KETCHUP lol. So ill try that out. I'm going to continue with starch based meals and see how it works out. I know i feel great...

Also I am trying to cut out all oils and fake butters and all that, which is a lot easier then i thought. I tend to be using heaps more veggie broth though.

This is so interesting, since there has been so much hype over diets that tell us to cut weight by cutting carbs. I personally think eating a variety of foods is the way to go, including carbs of course. I need to do some more research on Dr.McDougall's recommendations. I am intrigued. It always amuses me to see different health claims on opposite sides of the spectrum claiming to be the best way to go.

Me, too.

I have to say that I didn't have the best experience with the starch solution. After some months I felt irritable, not being able to concentrate, had less energy and had dry and itchy skin. I eat mostly Eat To Live now which contains more fat and beans and feel better than on a low-fat vegan diet.

It should be amusing, because anyone that procalims that they have the "Best diet for everyone" should be avoided at all costs! It's snake oil salesmanship once someone says that they have a plan that can help ANYONE lose weight, because if that were true, who would use anything else?

We're all too different for a "perfect" diet. Starchy foods now make me sluggish, bloated, and generally decrease my motivation to do anything physical, not to mention they don't fill me up without eating massive amounts that inevitably lead to more fat gain. Couldn't attempt a McDougall plan unless I wanted to simply test my will to subject myself to daily diet misery, but if it works for others, that's good to hear.

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"A 'hardgainer' is merely someone who hasn't bothered to try enough different training methods to learn what is actually right for their own damned body." - anonymous

Baby Herc

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I don't see dolphins eating bananas and monkeys eating fish. Why do humans have to be so different from each other?

They're not.



If you don't like it that's one thing. There's always other sources of carbs such as fruits.

However, if your diet isn't carb based and you aren't eating either starches or fruits, you're a yo yo dieter or overloading yourself with protein and/or fats and overworking your body, causing it to focus on something it could be using energy toward more important and fun things.

And after being on high protein/fat so long your body is going to eventually win out, and you are going to be overwhelmingly craving some kind of carb in such a way that you're going to eat a lot, and gain weight (initially because you're in starvation mode). Then you're going to feel guilty for "binging" when all you're doing is just being human.

I say skip all that and just do 80/10/10 and get it over with. One more problem in life SOLVED.

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High carb, low fat, whole foods. Any questions?

So, you're saying to disregard roughly 17 years of personal diet trial-and-error and recording of how I respond to various diet programs and macronutrient ratios on all ranges of the spectrum and go with something that's proven to not work for me on past experience? I'm not saying we can't all exist on something like a diet based on starches, but if you think it or something like 80/10/10 is optimal for ALL people, I'm afraid I'll have to kindly say that you're projecting your own personal preferences on those who might othewise not be the same. The dolphins and monkeys comment isn't really remotely relevant here - I'm not saying to eat things that are far removed from nature, but there are more "delicate" balance factors that tend to apply toward humans than such a simple statement would let on.





Nope, not a yo-yo dieter, it's pretty silly to infer that something incongruent with your own plans is sub-optimal without having any idea what the specific differences are. It sounds too dogmatic to instantly assume that something different = poor choice without knowing the background, or, by simply assuming that what works for one will always work for another. Please recall, I'm not a newbie to training or dieting, so no need for the spiel that would fit someone who doens't understand the nature of excessive caloric restriction or eating too little of something that can throw the body out of balance.

I eat close to a Zone type macronutrient ratio, but the 40/30/30 varies between 40% protein and 40% carbs depending on whether or not I'm training that day. I don't get cravings for sweets or starches that lead to binging any longer as I did on other programs (both of my downfalls that have given me the fastest fat gain), I've lost 10 lbs. of pure fat in 2.5 months without anything more than mild (300 cal. under maintenance) calorie restriction on my non-lifting days (with no cardio added in my program), and for the first time while losing weight, I'm both getting stronger AND have more energy than I have in the past. I'd certainly like to know how this is less than ideal considering I couldn't get the scale to budge in the right direction on a carb-heavy/starch-heavy plan, much less get stronger and feel better at the same time. And, the best part is, I feel like I get to eat PLENTY at every meal, no longer do I get hungry 90 minutes later from low-fat meals that burn through me in record time, which have been known to send me into binge periods that undermine the whole process. Not to mention, now that I relize it, I never said I don't eat ANY starches, but they're in serious moderation, only enough to be a side portion of what I eat and never the main course.

My original post wasn't to cut down a starch-based diet as if it doesn't work for anyone, but I will ALWAYS defend the position that dogmatic rigidity in believing in a single "perfect" system for all people for optimal fat loss and feeling great day-to-day is a bad path to be on. Everyone SHOULD embrace their best path when they find it, and by all means, share it with others if it works for them. BUT....there's a big difference between sharing something that worked for them personally and insisting it's without flaw or that it's perfect for everyone, because I can certainly find plenty of flaws when applying such diets to my own body based on what I've tried in the past. I don't like to assume something doesn't work until I've tried it, and I've been willing to try everything over the years from high percentage raw through ultra-low-carb to learn how my body fares on each program. No matter what anyone might insist, I know myself better than anyone else, and that's a fact that can't be disputed

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"A 'hardgainer' is merely someone who hasn't bothered to try enough different training methods to learn what is actually right for their own damned body." - anonymous

That's fine if you're satisfied with what you're eating. It doesn't change the fact that, as a human being, you're peeing out probably 30% of the 40% protein and forcing your body to spend energy and resources on converting all that fat into sugar so it can use it, excreting it out the skin pores (or clogging them, causing acne), possibly hardening your arteries, and very slowly depositing it into every cell in your body.

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High carb, low fat, whole foods. Any questions?

Well, that's providing all those things actually are happening to the degree you note (which may or may not be the case, as you wouldn't know without dissecting me), but let me note this -

1. I feel better on high protein/fat every time, it's undisputable that my body is better suited for it, no matter what anyone claiming the "evils" of high protein says. Nobody can disprove it, no matter what the "science" of low protein and high carb says as fact.

2. I'm leaner, stronger, and more energetic on this diet than anything that was low protein and high carb that I've tried, ever. Therefore, my body is thriving on it in comparison to higher carb and lower fat diets, so how can eating a diet that would make me feel sluggish, bloated, constantly hungry and unmotivated be a better option?

3. My skin is clearer than when I ate more carbs (one pimple all summer so far, where I usually have more on my forehead from sweating more often), not to mention the bit of eczema I had on my chin (usually aggravated by beard growth that I normally have) has all but disappeared since going back on this eating program. Funny that it's doing the opposite of what you've said it should do!

Anecdotally, some "experts" say I should feel like shit on this type of eating (or, they'll try to use scare tactics to infer that I'm cutting my life short, which is a lot of hype), but factual evidence proves them incorrect. It's the same as inferring that everyone will die of lung cancer if they smoke - sure, many are going to be unhealthy, but you could be of Keith Richards genetics and shoot dope, smoke like a chimney and drink like a fish for decades and still get by. That's all I'm saying - one person can thrive on something while the next may not do well, but it's terribly silly to say "Diet X will make everyone lose weight and feel great, while Diet Z will kill you quickly!" because it's all assumptive and anecdotal, too far removed from the principle of individual differences to be accurate.

The facts speak for themselves when trial and error is applied to individuals, and I've found what works for me. Best to all who get by on other means, but let's not let hype get in the way of rational discussion. It does the same disservice as when we vegans try to insist that they'll outlive all who are non-vegan, it just muddies the argument with poor logic based on assumption and lack of facts based on the same tired scare tactics that the "protein = death" goofs have been insisting for years, without evidence to prove it.

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"A 'hardgainer' is merely someone who hasn't bothered to try enough different training methods to learn what is actually right for their own damned body." - anonymous

Anyone who says it didn't work for them (probably most of them) probably 1) didn't eat enough and 2) didn't drink enough water.

That's just my opinion. I go through a gallon of water a day.

But that's just me and I don't mind what is required of a more ideal diet for a human being.

If you are happy in your 40/30/30 world that's just fine with me.

Good luck in the future!

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High carb, low fat, whole foods. Any questions?

Wish I could say that either of those were a factor, but I ate plenty when I had more starchy foods, the main issue being that they simply don't fill me up unless I eat a TON of them. For example, I can now be fully satieated after eating something like an 8 oz. wheat protein veggie steak (the bulk of my protein/fat in such a meal) along with 4-5 oz. of spiced kidney beans or lentils and take in 500-750 cal. per meal on average, being pleasantly full for 4 hours afterward with zero sluggishness, no problem. With more pastas, potatoes, rice, etc. my average caloric intake was 1000+ to find a point where I was actually even beginning to feel full, and I'd be staving 2-3 hours later, ready to eat again. I mean, there were some days that I put down a full 1 lb. box of pasta, and it would go right through me even being close to 2000 cal. in one sitting. Sure, the starches were great when I was bulking up, I do credit them greatly with going from 250 to 283 lbs. over the two years I made my best gains in training, but when it comes to fat loss or just daily maintenance, they don't suit my system well and end up shooting me in the foot for making much progress. Love to eat them, but my body has apparently been telling me for years that it just doesn't utilize them effectively, and that leads to sub-optimal progress in the goals I'm after right now.

I'm also notorious for always drinking at least a gallon of water per day, sometimes I'm close to 2 gallons. Heck, last time I trained at my facility, I drank 70 oz. of water over just two hours, and that was after I'd already put down more than 2 liters during the day and I'd drink nearly the same later that evening. I've always been on the thirsty side and keep water handy at all times, so I sip it constantly through the day as it's just a habit I've gotten into.

Can't say those two things are a factor in why it doesn't work for me, which is why I still insist that some of us are simply built differently and will respond to different diets accordingly. Unlike like the friend who got me into training is able to lose 20 lbs. of pure fat in 6 weeks and have a ripped 6-pack midsection just by no longer drinking his usual nightly beers, I have to battle my ass off just to keep my waistline from expanding even when I've thought I was eating along the lines of what was good for me - some of us respond to identical factors so differently, you'd almost swear some people were of completely different species in the range of how what works for one doesn't yield the same results for another.

Like I said before, you should definitely embrace what works for you - if someone feels great on high starch, high protien, high raw, or whatever their choice, stick with it so long as you TRULY feel good on it for how it works for your body, which should usually also be visible in how one looks as well (as opposed to the "I feel great on this diet!" people who obviously aren't thriving on it, like the raw guy I had a long conversation with at an Animal Rights conference who looked like a fragile skeleton with dark grey colored teeth, and he was only 22 years old!) Regardless of what plan you're on for eating, if it makes you feel healthy and gets you closer to your goals, more power to you!

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"A 'hardgainer' is merely someone who hasn't bothered to try enough different training methods to learn what is actually right for their own damned body." - anonymous