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 Post subject: BBC Panorama documentry trashes suppliments
PostPosted: Fri Jul 20, 2012 9:36 am 
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Well, caught the BBC documentary regarding sports products. While we've kinda known for a while that sports drinks are nothing but water and sugar and don't really do anything for you that water wont, they also came out with research that showed that supplements such as BCAA's, Protein powder and so on don't really do anything for you even if you are a top level athlete.

Funny thing is, I don't think they ever talked about powerlifting or body building, just "sports". Just wondering peoples opinions on this.

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 Post subject: Re: BBC Panorama documentry trashes suppliments
PostPosted: Fri Jul 20, 2012 9:56 am 
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i was wanting to watch this, ill check it out on iplayer and give you a verdict


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 Post subject: Re: BBC Panorama documentry trashes suppliments
PostPosted: Fri Jul 20, 2012 1:36 pm 
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mythil wrote:
they also came out with research


The only research that matters is the research you do on yourself. You don't know who they conducted those tests on, how those people lived their lives, or even how the protocols and resulting stats of the tests were tweaked to reflect the preconceptions of the scientists conducting them. There are so many variables, it boggles the mind--but what boggles it even more is how many of those variables scientists don't even consider, or deliberately ignore.

Statistics are the most malleable magic trick out there. Four out of five dentists agree.

Baby Herc

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 Post subject: Re: BBC Panorama documentry trashes suppliments
PostPosted: Fri Jul 20, 2012 3:19 pm 
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Baby Hercules wrote:
mythil wrote:
they also came out with research


The only research that matters is the research you do on yourself. You don't know who they conducted those tests on, how those people lived their lives, or even how the protocols and resulting stats of the tests were tweaked to reflect the preconceptions of the scientists conducting them. There are so many variables, it boggles the mind--but what boggles it even more is how many of those variables scientists don't even consider, or deliberately ignore.

Statistics are the most malleable magic trick out there. Four out of five dentists agree.

Baby Herc


Not saying I believe them. But what I don't "get" is that protein powder and BCAA's have been used by lots of weight lifters with no problems and with results. Wondering what they are saying really..

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 Post subject: Re: BBC Panorama documentry trashes suppliments
PostPosted: Fri Jul 20, 2012 3:38 pm 
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mythil wrote:
Not saying I believe them. But what I don't "get" is that protein powder and BCAA's have been used by lots of weight lifters with no problems and with results. Wondering what they are saying really..


If what they are "saying" is obviously false, why even give them attention? You live in the aforementioned world with no problems and results, so enjoy! :D

Baby Herc

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 Post subject: Re: BBC Panorama documentry trashes suppliments
PostPosted: Sun Jul 22, 2012 1:56 pm 
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Baby Hercules wrote:
The only research that matters is the research you do on yourself. You don't know who they conducted those tests on, how those people lived their lives, or even how the protocols and resulting stats of the tests were tweaked to reflect the preconceptions of the scientists conducting them. There are so many variables, it boggles the mind--but what boggles it even more is how many of those variables scientists don't even consider, or deliberately ignore.

Statistics are the most malleable magic trick out there. Four out of five dentists agree.

Baby Herc


Did you even watch the video?

The group did not conduct their own research, they investigated research provided to them by product manufacturers. They then proceeded to cut down just about every claim made as incorrect and unjustified. The science (or lack thereof) proved all the marketing claims wrong.

Also of particular amusement for me was the review of Vega, where they pointed out the claims on their website were backed up by studies from 1930, on rats.


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 Post subject: Re: BBC Panorama documentry trashes suppliments
PostPosted: Sun Jul 22, 2012 2:59 pm 
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I would say a lot of it the BBC didn't quite understand. While I agree that "sports drinks" are nothing more than sugar water that don't do much for you, protein powder, ceratine and BCAA's have been used by bodybuilders and others to great effect.

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 Post subject: Re: BBC Panorama documentry trashes suppliments
PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2012 7:26 am 
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Remember, this show was about the evidence for supplements for the average gym-goer, not serious or professional athletes. Just as they said that sugary water (i.e., sports drinks) can actually help performance during truly intense exercise but does nothing for someone just going to the gym, other products might be useful for competing bodybuilders but not for the average person lifting weights sometimes.

They did say that there is evidence for the effectiveness of creatine (and caffeine).

However, I think the show was pretty thorough and if I had to decide on whether to believe researchers who have pored through loads of actual studies on a topic, and people's stories of how they feel using products, I'll go with the research. Unless individuals are doing really controlled investigations of how different products affect them (e.g., being sure to change nothing other than the one thing they are interested in, carefully measuring objective outcomes), anecdotes really don't mean much at all. The whole point of research is to try to eliminate all those other factors that can come into play (e.g., placebo effect, lack of objectivity in assessing one's outcomes) and to gather information on a number of people together. Just because you feel that something is helping you, doesn't mean it really is. Though I guess if you get a placebo effect from using something, that can still be helpful in practical terms.

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 Post subject: Re: BBC Panorama documentry trashes suppliments
PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2012 7:57 am 
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FormicaLinoleum wrote:
Remember, this show was about the evidence for supplements for the average gym-goer, not serious or professional athletes. Just as they said that sugary water (i.e., sports drinks) can actually help performance during truly intense exercise but does nothing for someone just going to the gym, other products might be useful for competing bodybuilders but not for the average person lifting weights sometimes.

They did say that there is evidence for the effectiveness of creatine (and caffeine).

However, I think the show was pretty thorough and if I had to decide on whether to believe researchers who have pored through loads of actual studies on a topic, and people's stories of how they feel using products, I'll go with the research. Unless individuals are doing really controlled investigations of how different products affect them (e.g., being sure to change nothing other than the one thing they are interested in, carefully measuring objective outcomes), anecdotes really don't mean much at all. The whole point of research is to try to eliminate all those other factors that can come into play (e.g., placebo effect, lack of objectivity in assessing one's outcomes) and to gather information on a number of people together. Just because you feel that something is helping you, doesn't mean it really is. Though I guess if you get a placebo effect from using something, that can still be helpful in practical terms.


Oh yes but they didn't actually do much research or look at much research on what things do. A lot of bodybuilders / strength lifters, even casual ones use things like protein powders even if they use nothing else and it seems to work, muscles need protein and carbs (to some degree) and if a powder actually gives you that (really actually does it) then why not.

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 Post subject: Re: BBC Panorama documentry trashes suppliments
PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2012 11:07 am 
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They did spend very little time on protein powders so I'm not really sure what they were saying about them. They mentioned BCAAs but didn't say much about general protein supplements.

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 Post subject: Re: BBC Panorama documentry trashes suppliments
PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2012 3:22 am 
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http://www.myvega.com/about/guiding-principles
1. Samuel, E.L., & Kugelmass, I.N. (1930). Comparative Studies of the Influence of Acid-Forming and Base-Forming Diets on the Metabolism of Rats. American Journal of Diseases of Children, 39(4), 687-700

^^ Vega still have the link to the 1930's rat study as the leading reference for their products.

Strong fail.


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 Post subject: Re: BBC Panorama documentry trashes suppliments
PostPosted: Thu Jul 26, 2012 9:00 am 
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I think I should ask, what do you think? Protein powder or great diet, or both?

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