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 Post subject: Soy Protein Question
PostPosted: Mon Jun 26, 2006 6:13 am 
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Alright well I have just joined the forum , and I am not a vegan but I have alot of questions about the nutrition.

But well Soy Protein , Ive done alot of research on it because I am planning on starting my powerlifting routine very soon. So well I was going to use soy protein because of how much glutamine it contains and all the other nutritious benefits of it...

But well the bodybuilding forum that I us , They said to stay away from soy protein even though because of all the other benefits of it , because soy protein raises estrogen levels which is bad for bodybuilding because it can cause gyno and alot of other problems. Well on www.trueprotein.com the site where I am going to be getting alot of my protein and supplements from. They say on the information of soy protein that it is known for its anti-estrogenic effects , Which the people on bodybuilding forum still say stay away from it because the elevated estrogen. So I did more research and found even more good things about soy protein. Which among one of them was that soy protein doesnt lower or raise estrogen , but it contains a similiar hormone to estrogen but doesnt have the effects of gyno and other bad effects of estrogen even though it acts like estrogen....

So basically out all of my ranting above im trying to find out from Vegans there opinion on soy protein , does it raise estrogen or cause gyno? Because I would love to use like a *soy65/35whey* mixture of soy protein and whey protein for the effects of soy protein and the quick absortion of BCAA that whey protein gives. If the soy did not have any negative effects on bodybuilding because of estrogen


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 26, 2006 8:51 am 
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How about a Hemp or Rice protein? :D

Soy in isolate is not healthy because of the processing and concentration; (some) estrogen studies and general soy bashing is exaggerated.
However, it's best to consume soy in its purest form, which would be edamame; next, would be tofu. Would you consider soy that way instead of a powder? You will obtain the benefits without the negatives that way.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 26, 2006 12:16 pm 
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I've been eating soy for years and haven't had any signs of gyno. My opinion is that its best to get protein from a variety of beans: soybeans, lentils, red beans, black beans, peas, peanuts (most people think peanuts are nuts but they are really legumes)

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 26, 2006 6:32 pm 
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Well brown rice would be an easy way to get protein in my diet , and its pretty cheap. But I want soy protein because soy protein has more nutritional value than it , has alot more nutrients and vitamins in it... And it is full of glutamine to help recover muscles and keep you from overtraining , and also alot of studies that I did say that soy protein , that it reduces alot of types of cancer , and is good for your heart. It also is slow digesting so that I could space meals out a little further which means if I cant get to a protein shake in 2 hours I wont starve my body of the nutrients because it would still be in my body. So I would have an extra maybe hour so I could stop any negative effects on my muscles from not eating in time.

Soy protein contains alot of arginine , which helps to aid in immune system and release of growth hormones.. and glutamine does the same thing.

And soy protein contains daidzein isolflavones which is believed by many scientists to reduce estrogen because it acts like the drug Nolvadex an anti-estrogen staple...

One of the downsides that I find though is that soy protein doesnt help with nitrogen balance and the human body can only repair muscle tissue when in a positive nitrogen balance ... But I will be taking alot of vitamins and also , I will add in an aminogen/nitrogen vitamin into my protein shake that I order off of www.trueprotein.com But I will still have a 35% of whey protein isolate microfiltration added to add in nitrogen and quick release of protein in order to help feed muscles aminoacids ASAP once I take it after training




OH and willpeavy have you had any signs of lowered testosterone from taking soy protein? Like less energy than normal , not been as horny? or erections aint been has stiff? Just so I can make sure that the research that I have made is correct and that it doesnt not lower testosterone , and that it either does not affect it or raises it


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 Post subject: testosterone
PostPosted: Mon Jun 26, 2006 9:45 pm 
The chinese eat on average 8 times the amount of soy that that US eats...they also have the worlds highest population which wouldn't be possible if all the men were suffering from a high estrogen/testosterone ratio. Soy is great and I don't think theres anything bad about it unless you eat outlandish amounts more than a human can consume. I used to eat 300g of protein a day and about half of that would come from soy....the rest from nuts, other beans, high quality grains and veggies. I also got much stronger on that diet than I had when I was stuffing my body with creatine, whey, and egg protein in high school. Soy protein isolate is much better than whey...although it is better that you eat your soy...and protein in general. Whey will increase your triglyceride levels(one of the fats you want to keep to a minimum in your body), and it will also steal the calcium from your food and bones(dairy proteins prevent calcium absorbtion)


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 27, 2006 4:14 am 
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I've done some research on soya. I am in the process of putting it all together with references etc, but it's not ready yet (as you know if you've searched about a bit there's a LOT of studies out there to compare, source etc).
I'll give you the basic outline for now & anything else you will have to wait until I've finished compilling (sorry mate :( ).
First off before we start you need to know about the soya, meat/dairy war that's been raging for some time now. Various studies are published by either the soya industry (soya is the stuff of heaven & can cure everything from cancer to the common cold) & the meat/dairy industry (any man touching soya will grow breasts). Some of the "so called" research coming out has been of the lowest quality around & any sort of peer-review could/should tear it apart (doesn't happen so much these days as those doing the peer-reviewing know their next job is probably coming from the same guys who funding the research before them).
So you have to bear these facts in mind when reading research. Don't just hop to the conclusions, check how they prepared any study, see what results they've got to get their conclusions (you'd be surprised how many studies get one answer, but have an opposite conclusion!).
Now, here's the facts about soya. Soya has products called phyto-oestrogen in them. They are called phyto-oestrogens because they have a similar make-up to the estrogens in animals. They are said to be about 5,000 times less potent than oestrogen from animals (I've seen other figures for this, it depends upon which type of test you do, but at minimum it's 100's of times less potent by any standard).
Here's the theory (NOT fact): There are two camps of thought. It could be that phyto-oestrogens can fit into the receptors designed for endogenic oestrogen (produced within the organism) - this is by no means proved, but if it can then it could have one of several effects:
a/ It blocks the receptor from any endogenic oestrogen, so would have an anti-oestrogen effect.
b/ As it acts like a very weak oestrogen it blocks the receptor from an endogenic oestrogen, so by acting much more weakly than the endogenic oestrogen acts as an anti-oestrogen (you get a weaker effect than an endogenic oestrogen, so in effect it acts like a block)
c/ It fits into a receptor & acts like oestrogen

At the moment the majority of research supports either a or b. There have been some feminising effects from some research, but this has been from purifying huge amounts of phyto-oestrogen & force-feeding it to rats (who, by the way, metabolise differently to humans), but more realistic studies have shown mainly no or a very slight anti-oestrogenic effects.
As a side note, in studies of soya Vs whey there was no difference in effects of hypertrophy.

I'd like to move back a step here & ask a question. Does ingesting oestrogen have an effect upon the hormonal make-up of the body to any great extent. Firstly any hormone is made of amino acids, now one thing the body is good at is getting at amino acids, breaking them down & assimilating them (there are the odd exceptions to this with prions etc, but as a rule stomach acid does a good job of breaking down any amino acid groups to their base components), but for now assume that oestrogen can make it into the body in reasonable amounts. Now, how do you think the effect of drinking the blood products of a lactating mother would effect your oestrogen levels? Milk products are swimming in oestrogens & yet they've never been associated with the feminising of males. As milk is fed to all growing males it would infact be implied that to keep our "maleness" we've had to have some system to protect ourselves from any potential feminising effects that we'd recieve the first few years of our lives. You cannot say that the very weak effects of phyto-oestrogen have this massive effect upon the males producing breasts etc & yet that the consumption of milk (& milk products, including whey) do not have any effect, unless you're claiming that oestrogen for mammals is broken down in the stomach, but phyto-oestrogen is not (but this would imply that phyto-oestrogens are very different from mammal oestrogen, so almost certainly wouldn't work in the same fashion within the body?).
So, as you can see the "feminising effects" of soya is propoganda, or misunderstood research or terms.
Another point is most plant based foods contains phyto-oestrogens (which are chemicals that look slightly similar to our oestrogen, but serve a totally different function within the plant), so you'd probably have to avoid plant food to avoid phyto-oestrogens :?

OK, I think that's enough for now except to say that I'd take the middle ground with soya. I don't believe the "wonder food" hype it's being given, nor do I believe to "food from hell" hype that being pumped out. Treat soya like any other food. One that's got a decent amount of protein, for sure, but one that's not the "cure-all" either.
Having soya will not cause breasts anymore than having whey will.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jun 27, 2006 7:57 am 
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Elephant
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Malic wrote:
OH and willpeavy have you had any signs of lowered testosterone from taking soy protein? Like less energy than normal , not been as horny? or erections aint been has stiff? Just so I can make sure that the research that I have made is correct and that it doesnt not lower testosterone , and that it either does not affect it or raises it


:lol: Yeah I had no problems making a baby while eating a diet with lots of soy, so I would say testosterone levels have been good.

I think watermelon is the best food for getting arginine.

What are you taking for nitrogen? I've been using ZMA

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 27, 2006 9:16 am 
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Umm.. Well since im only 15 wont turn 16 till July 2nd which is in about a week.. I dont have a job yet so parents have to fund for my supplements and everything and we dont have much money.....

So actually I havent touched creatine , protein shakes , vitamins or anything for about atleast 2 months... And I didnt really take anything for nitrogen balance whenever I was working out. I didnt know as much about bodybuilding as I do now. I basically just knew about taking carbs after workout to stop cortisol , and to take in lots of protein... And I would make great gains with just know that...

But well I didnt take anything to keep a positive nitrogen balance back then I just got alot of it from my whey protein shakes I guess. Maybe a little nitrogen from my diet which wasnt and isnt really that good now either.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 28, 2006 7:07 am 
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At 15 you only need to eat, eat EAT! (barring any obesity issues). Your hormones are still heading towards your peak, so you have no problems producing enough of everything you need to get as big as you naturally can, proving you eat enough, don't go too mad partying & don't go too crazy in the gym.
Your hardest issue will be patience. Growing takes time, so don't be in a rush, use good form & anything that ANYONE says that causes you pain (injury type pain, not training pain).
I'd steer clear of any fancy supplements for now, maybe add a protein powder, but you really don't need anything else (you might not even need that if you're eating enough).
Be sure you think about your micronutrients as well as your macronutrients, so get some fresh fruit & veggies everyday, & 2 definite issues you need to think about are healthy fat (fats & proteins are the two major factors in testosterone levels), so getting healthy fats (from ground flax, or hemp or their oils), only about a tablespoon of oil (double that of ground seeds) will give you an anabolic edge & aid in fat loss too! The other issue is B12 (I know I harp on about these two things all the time!), go buy a B12 capsule & twice a week open the capsule & put the contents under your tongue for a minute or so (or if you get a pill, suck one twice a week), this along with the above will keep you growing 100%.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jun 28, 2006 3:10 pm 
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A few things:

1) Simply warning, in case you get tempted: A leading cause of "gyno" in male weight lifters is from steroid use and not just pharmaceutical steroids but also many of the legal herbal products (the ones that do work.) They cause your body to raise both its testosterone and estrogen levels. It won't happen to every male, that uses steroids, but it happens to some.

2) Kind of a side comment: By definition all protein has much nitrogen in it - it is basically just amino acids in nitrogen. I do not know which protein sources have more nitrogen than others, but if a source has more then that means it will have less amino acids (if a source's percentage of nitrogen goes up then the percentage of amino acids would have to go down, as the two parts combined would equal 100% of the product's mass.)

3) Nitrogen balance is a confusing concept. It seems many attribute the balance as being caused by your diet, while more in-depth study indicates it is caused by your body's health (some disease leads to losing nitrogen) and stage (a younger growing person is going to use more nitrogen for growth and an older, non growing person is going to tend to release more nitrogen.) What this seems to mean is that positive nitrogen balance does not affect body growth and health; rather it is the effect of body growth and health. In other words, if you are young and growing (and no disease), you will be in positive nitrogen balance.


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