Vegan Bodybuilding & Fitness

Healthy Food Defines You
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 13, 2005 12:58 am 
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Elephant

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Good point ronnie, many of my friends keep their distance because my lifestyle is quite the opposite of theirs. They are very defensive if we talk about substance use or meat eating.


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 13, 2005 4:43 am 
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CollegeB wrote:
Good point ronnie, many of my friends keep their distance because my lifestyle is quite the opposite of theirs. They are very defensive if we talk about substance use or meat eating.


word :(


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 13, 2005 6:48 am 
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defining straight edge as a set of principles and morals is fine, but you cant put on a similar level to the priciples of veganism. not eating animal products directly causes far less animal suffering, but being straight edge doesnt really affect anyone but yourself, and even then the health benefits of being tee total (smoking obviously causes multiple diseases and drugs can be a slippery slope) are not really there.

i dont wish to attack anyones lifestyle, but i simply cannot understand why anyone would want to entirely cut out alcohol, as it is entirely harmless if you have any degree of self control, which as a board mostly full of vegans, you obviously do. the fact of the matter is that provided you actually drink beer and wine that is meant to be appreciated for taste, you can really enjoy it, and getting wasted is something that does not appeal.
i went out with quite a few people from my old school night before last, many of them got quite drunk (not puking drunk) whilst i stayed sober (i had 1.5pints of excellent european beer). i had a good time, the beer was great but getting drunk is not something i would ever consider.

before ruling out ever drinking anything, i recommend trying at least a few different beers or wine to say whether drinking one would really affect anything. pick a decent ale, or a good european pilsner. avoid anything american! i just wouldnt let the idiots who abuse alcohol ruin your enjoyment of what can be a wonderful exploration of the thousands of different drinks in the world.

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 13, 2005 7:01 am 
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Richard wrote:
If you drink enough alcohol to affect your behaviour, then that irritates me to be in your company. If you haven't drunk enough for it to change your behaviour, why are you drinking at all, what is the point?

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if people like the taste of it I understand that.


I don't like what it does to me and I don't like the taste of it


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 13, 2005 3:35 pm 
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Actually man alcohol is just a poison to humans, and if you dont like the shit meat has in it or the pesticides on veggies i dont see why you would poison yourself with alcohol considering it is not even necessary to live. Personally I feel i get enough crap from the air and chemicals in the water that there is no need to add more toxins to the body. Your body actually turns alcohol into acetylaldehyde (similar to formaldehyde), and that is what gives you that little stimulant feeling after the first drink or so.


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 13, 2005 3:59 pm 
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well im not vegan for health reasons - its just a bonus that its healthier.

if alcohol is so toxic to the body why is the most healthy (widely followed) diet, the mediterranean diet? i know they consume seafood, but it is low in dairy and meat, so is nearest to veganism as regards any western diet. it is also high in wine, particularly red wine.

also it is fact that tee totalers generally speaking are less happy and do not live as long. i think id rather take my chances with the (rather tasty) 'poison'.

jonathan

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 13, 2005 5:20 pm 
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jonathan wrote:
even then the health benefits of being tee total are not really there.

i don't really see how you can say there are no health benefits to not drinking. that's ludicrous. there are several ways a sober lifestylecan help you physically and mentally.

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but i simply cannot understand why anyone would want to entirely cut out alcohol

well, just because you don't understand it doesn't mean it's not any good. not everyone thinks alcohol is such an important part of life and essential to good times, you know.

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being straight edge doesnt really affect anyone but yourself


alcohol contributes to 100,000 deaths annually. not drinking affects many people, just as drinking affects many more people than just the person actually drinking the beer.

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i think id rather take my chances with the (rather tasty) 'poison'.

yes, and meat eaters consider a steak a tasty poison.

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if alcohol is so toxic to the body why is the most healthy (widely followed) diet, the mediterranean diet?it is also high in wine, particularly red wine

saying that the meditterranean is most healthy diet is surprising, since you do not follow that diet. you are a vegan aren't you? also, just because it is the most popular diet does not make it the healthiest. the subject of what is the healthiest diet is open to much speculation and debate, not popularity. and i believe a fast food diet high in animal flesh and fat is the most widely followed diet. by the way, you can get the same health benefits of red wine from eating grapes.

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also it is fact that tee totalers generally speaking are less happy and do not live as long

i don't know where you get this "fact" from. it seems completely unfounded. add to that the fact that alcohol is labeled a depressant, and abuse of it leads to depression. furthermore, i don't see how you can say they tee totalers do not live as long since alcohol is the 3rd leading cause of preventable death.

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before ruling out ever drinking anything, i recommend trying at least a few different beers or wine to say whether drinking one would really affect anything. pick a decent ale, or a good european pilsner. avoid anything american!


not everybody is going to love the taste of alcohol as much as you do. not through any of my posts have i suggested you stop drinking entirely. so i don't see why you are being so insistent on trying to get people to start drinking. i am glad that you can moderate your drinking habit. the rest of your friends, as well as most other drinkers, should follow your example.

i am sure your heart is in the right place. you really think we would have some fun with an occasional beer. but you have to realize that what you find enjoyable and even delicious, does not apply to everyone. because you find it enjoyable and does not mean i will. i know people who don't like the taste of raisins. but i don't try to pressure them into trying them because i find raisins delicious. nobody knows an individual's taste better than that individual.

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 13, 2005 7:19 pm 
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i object to the parrelel drawn between eating meat and drinking in the 'some consider eating steak a tasty poison'. veganism is a moral choice for me. eating a cow actually causes the cow to die horribly, what damage it does to me is irrelevant. drinking alcohol is harmless to anyone in moderation. it is entirely different to animal rights.

i used the example of the meditaranean diet as it is followed by whole countries, and whilst obviously not vegan, has far less animal products in it that many western diets. i also used it as an example of how alcohol (which is drunk traditionally with meals, which is when i usually have it) is fine when not abused.

'According to pamphlets from the Do It Now Foundation (obtained from Student Health Services), recent scientific evidence also suggests that small amounts of alcohol daily reduce the likelihood of atherosclerosis, heart attack and stroke. '

taken from one of the links you posted. regarding that particular link, all the dangers are based on you necking one beer after another until you cant stand.

having looked at the other links also, they all address alcohol abuse, not sensible drinking. i am not suggesting everyone go out and drink a beer now only that its silly to say 'im morally opposed to alcohol because other people dont know when to stop'. i know this is a ridiculous example but you can actually die if you drink too much water (something like 7litres inside an hour) - should i be morally opposed to water too?

the stat regarding tee totalers being less happy and shorter lived i cannot source as it something that stuck in my mind from an article in a newspaper some years ago (a pretty reputable one called the independent). i imagine that it has something to do with social stimatisation (which is not on) and that a little alcohol causes stress relief and relaxation (stress is seriously dangerous to ones health).

the reason why i am bemused at the whole anti alcohol argument is that i find it indefenseable unless you really dont like it. and if you are basing your opinion on alcohol on budweiser (btw the real, czech budvar, which budweiser originates from is awesome) and you refuse to try any more its like so many children who wont eat any vegetables because they didnt like brussel sprouts (horrible micro cabbage type things).

my one major experience of american culture (one god awful month is fort worth and local area, though nyc last year was great) left me with the impression that it is really a culture of extremes. on the one hand you have religious zealots preaching that you will go to hell if you have sex before marriage, and on the other there are thousands of girls dropping out of school to have kids as no one will have an abortion. you have huge alcohol abuse, widespread throughout society (as we also have in places here) yet also i have met loads of straight edgers there(most of you are americans on this thread). you have seriously curtailed social freedom (O.T.T. police force, massive gun ownership) yet many of the best peaceful communes are in the US.
my impression was of a primarily reactionary culture, one of serious extremes, with no middle ground. maybe rather than saying 'ill never drink alcohol', an apporach of 'ill have a drink with you, only if you dont get drunk' would be more appropriate. that way the extremes of culture can meet.

all im really saying is that closing yourself off to any alcohol isnt going to stop people abusing it. abstaining from it doesnt benefit you and you deny yourself a world of opportunity as regards exploring different wines, ales and beers. i could drink a different drink every night but in a whole lifetime you could never try them all. its fascinating the craft that goes into creating these drinks, and i look forward to exploring them :)

jonathan

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 Post subject: Non-Sense
PostPosted: Sun Aug 14, 2005 1:16 am 
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First of all, let me apologize for stating that the beginning of the straight-edge movement was in the '90's, way back when this forum first began. It definitely started in the 1980's and really began to take off in the late 80's and stayed pretty big in the hardcore scene through the first half of the '90's. Ray Cappo and his band Youth of Today were the ones who most people associate with strengthening and growing the straightedge movement.

Second, in all due respect Jonathan, you seem to speak alot of nonsensical thoughts here. Alchohol is NOT good for the human body. It is a poison plain and simple. Immediately when the substance is taken in, the body goes through a strict and deliberate process of trying to eliminate it from the organism, just like any other poison. Also, you have said more than once that alcohol use only affects the person drinking it. But for any of us who have had families torn apart because of alcohol or have had someone injured or killed by a drunk-driver, we would vehementely disagree with the notion that it is a victimless offense. Alcohol consumption has far reaching affects. I know that you based your argument on moderation. But I just don't believe in the moderation principle. Those same doctors and "health experts" who advocate 1 or 2 drinks a day also advocate meat and dairy and eggs in moderation. You claim America is mostly a society of extremes, which for the most part is true. However, at least when someone is extreme to one side or the other they are truly passionate about what they believe and are fully engrossed in its principles. Taking the middle ground, or moderation ground seems like the easy way out. I don't support the notion of whatever you want to do is alright. A little of this, a little of that, or moderation - that never got anybody anywhere.

Third, most of us include health reasons as one of the primary reasons we are vegan. So what does it say about us if we eat clean foods and the like, but then say it is alright to drink alcohol everyday in small amounts? It is ironic how some vegans will argue all about eating organic foods free from even trace amounts of pesticides, in the attempt to avoid poisons at all costs, but then will embrace the notion of 1 or 2 alcholic drinks a day, a known poision, as healthy. This is a huge hyposcrisy.


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 Post subject: Protection of All Life
PostPosted: Sun Aug 14, 2005 1:27 am 
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"on the one hand you have religious zealots preaching that you will go to hell if you have sex before marriage, and on the other there are thousands of girls dropping out of school to have kids as no one will have an abortion."

Jonathan, I also noticed you seem to be advocating the act of abortion here. I also find it very ironic when vegans/vegetarians argue that all life should be respected and held sacred, as a means to defend the rights of animals, but then those same individuals argue for abortion of human life. Is this the position you are advocating? How can we defend the rights of animals, but then say it is alright to kill humans? We constantly say we must protect the weakest and most defenseless of life (such as those in factory farms and slaughterhouses), but what about those human souls that have not had the right to life. There are many hurdles the vegetarian movement must cross if more people are to embrace the principles of the movement, but if we argue to stop killing animals but say it is alright to kill humans in the form of abortion, why would anyone want to embrace a movement with people who have such a philosophy?


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 14, 2005 1:39 am 
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I think the U.S. seems so extreme because those who are "extreme" speak their minds while the majority just go about their lives and are quite apathetic to almost everything.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 14, 2005 5:43 am 
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I don't think it's morally wrong to drink alcohol if it doesn't cause you to injure yourself or other people, and so long as it doesn't affect other people once you are drunk, even if drunk people do irritate me, I do not think it is morally wrong to be drunk, I just don't want to be personally, because I think it makes me act like a moron. And the reason why I don't drink at all is because I don't like the taste of it, or there are other drinks which taste nicer.

I don't know many people who actually like the taste of alcohol, other than alcohol which has the flavour of something else like wine, cider, alcopops etc. When's the last time someone made a beer-flavoured pie, or a beer-flavoured toothpaste? I know some stuff is flavoured mildly with alcohol, but it isn't common. I think it's quite understandable that people don't like the taste of alcohol, I don't see where the confusion is. I know loads of people who mix heavy alcohol with another drink like coke or lemonade, in order to hide the taste of the alcohol. They want the alcohol to get them drunk, not because they like the taste.

I know there are people who do like the taste of alcohol, and good luck to them, that doesn't upset me at all, it's cool. But I think also it should be accepted, and realised that other people don't like the taste. And someone who doesn't like the taste or the effects won't have any interest in it at all :?


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 14, 2005 6:39 am 
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Elephant
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i absolutely do advocate abortion.

there are already far too many people on the planet, and in many cases where girls are only in their teens and pregnant, what is the chance that the kid, or the mother is going to have any kind of life? the mother is unlikely to be able to give the child a decent upbringing and the parents lose out on a life.
there is a time when people are ready to have kids. if people have them before that time, everyone suffers.
i do not advocate abortion as a method of birth control btw, but as a last measure.

also, in the case where the child is going to be born with disability, there should be no argument for keeping the child. how can you justify giving birth knowingly to a disabled child, who is unable to fulfill its potential as a human, when there are millions of orphaned kids starving around the world?

most vegans would actually say that farm animals would be better off not being born, rather than having a shitty life. the argument for abortion is just the same. besides, a foetus at less than 20weeks would be terminated quite painlessly, so it is in effect far more humane than letting it be born to live a crappy life.

its interesting that the abortion debate is so prominent in the US - in most western european countries it is quite accepted. but then we dont have such penetration by right wing christian groups. i apologise if that statement causes offense, but it is the reason.

jonathan

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 14, 2005 7:14 am 
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i find it hard to say when something is alive or not, during preggaz (pregnancy). I would definitely argue that at some stages, it is morally acceptable to abort. I think there is definitely a grey-area where it is hard to say what's alive and what isn't, and I dunno how I feel about it. And say the baby is 9 months old in the woman, definitely against aborting at that stage


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 14, 2005 7:20 am 
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agreed. if the baby can survive outside the mother (usually after 24weeks, though its chances are slim) then there is no case for abortion, unless it is disabled.

jonathan

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