Strict Vegan Diets May Be Dangerous

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9nines
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#16 Postby 9nines » Sat Sep 02, 2006 8:53 pm

I just broke from my vegan diet because of that article. I am persuaded by fact and science and I can not deny that you can not get more scientific than: “I have come to this conclusion based on almost ten years of extensive postal and e-mail correspondence sent.”

I mean who needs control and experimental groups to control variables and then have your results peer reviewed, by other comptenet researchers, when you can just base conclusion on simple email and postal testimonials?
Last edited by 9nines on Sat Sep 02, 2006 9:16 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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#17 Postby 9nines » Sat Sep 02, 2006 8:59 pm

So true, on many points:

(1) "Although my suspicion is that the body does not treat water the same as it treats juice, my current thinking is that listening to our body's requests for liquid may be the most sensible approach."

He knows about what he is talking. Just the other day, may stomach was rumbling but knowing its language, after years of email and postal correppsondence with it, I knew it was trying to talk to me. It said, “my enzymes and acid broke down the nutrients in the orange juice you just drank, and after abosrbing them into our blood, water was left but I know that water was recently fruit juice, so damn if I am going to utilize it as simple ole’ H2O, so you better just drink some water or else I will give you some cravings you have never seen.” :pukeleft:

(2) “My current understanding of juicing is that it works best when there's a balance of variously-colored vegetables in the juice.”

Again, he is so right. My juicer broke the other day. Since it was a recent purchase, I returned it to the store but the clerk noticed that I voided the warranty when I admitted I only used two colors of fruit and vegetables in it. :toimonster:


(3) "I was wondering if you've heard anything about the association between a predominantly raw food diet and a Chinese diagnosis called spleen deficiency?"

Wow, I was wondeirng what happened to my spleen. :shock: Sure wish I would have read this man's blog before my spleen went missing. :rolleyes:

(4) "Since we are opportunistic omnivores by nature, it only makes sense that our bodies will run best on the fuel we were designed to run on: foods from both plant and animal kingdoms."

No bias there. I mean someone that thinks we are “opportunistic omnivores by nature” wouldn’t have a bias, would he? So add that unbiased attitude, with his very scientific methodology (cravings, emails, popular health food stories that of course are never trying to sell something, etc.) and who would doubt this guy? :withstupid:




Forgive me, I was entertaining a silly mood. :joker:

Seriously, this guy is completely opining. There is no research backing any of his opinions.

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Alex
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#18 Postby Alex » Sat Sep 02, 2006 11:30 pm

Hahah, love the sarcasm. :D

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#19 Postby veganbarbie » Sun Sep 03, 2006 12:14 am

True holy rollers (like myself) eat a vegan diet bc that is how God created us, as told in Genesis.
Later bitches.

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#20 Postby veganbarbie » Sun Sep 03, 2006 12:16 am

True holy rollers (like myself) eat a vegan diet bc that is how God created us, as told in Genesis.
Later bitches.

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#21 Postby Richard » Sun Sep 03, 2006 6:24 am

:lol: @ 9nines
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#22 Postby veganbuilder » Mon Sep 04, 2006 12:19 am

It's true that Vegans are more prone to strokes and heart attacks, though. Also, diabetics need meat, there is no way around it. Instead of attacking this guy, let's just say there are some people who cannot do without meat. it's a fact. And the food is delicious. :D I only recently converted to veganism, and of all people, I know how hard it is. So people, let's be more gentle. It's alright to eat meat once in a while, even for a vegan.

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#23 Postby veganbarbie » Mon Sep 04, 2006 3:30 am

veganbuilder wrote:It's true that Vegans are more prone to strokes and heart attacks, though. Also, diabetics need meat, there is no way around it. Instead of attacking this guy, let's just say there are some people who cannot do without meat. it's a fact. And the food is delicious. :D I only recently converted to veganism, and of all people, I know how hard it is. So people, let's be more gentle. It's alright to eat meat once in a while, even for a vegan.


I disagree with virtually everything you just said. Vegans eat a cholesterol free diet most of which is low fat (or good fat) which makes the risk for strokes and heart attacks nearly zero. (esp when compared to what Americans in general are eating) Ive seen patients who have vegan Drs cure them after a heart attack, take away their risks for a second, and clear out their arteries to the point of being taken off of all medicine. Diabetics dont need meat, and actually meat and dairy can not only make the disease worse, but in a lot of cases cause it. I have taken a few of my patients and talked to them about altering their diet for just a few weeks, asking them to go vegan, or vegetarian and saw vast improvements. Some diabetics have even be cured by a raw vegan diet. Veganism isn't hard, if you do it for the right reasons and you are well informed of what is in the food you are consuming, it is actually quite easy.

Im not a vegan nazi or anything, even I have moments where cheese either sounds kind of good, or it was in something I didnt know about.. but I would never touch meat again, ever. I dont know about what other vegans feel but the term vegan is something given to someone who works to eat what is right and wouldn't feel very good if someone ate meat "sometimes" and called themselves vegans. We have a msg to send to the world, and an example to show, we need to keep our standards high. I dont want to have a bad run in with someone who thinks vegans sometimes eat meat because they know a "vegan" who does. And I really dont want them to expect me to come to their house and just because I'm there think I would eat ANYTHING they made simply because their impression of veganism was wrong.

When I was a vegetarian I wrote a blog and now would be a good time to share it.

"What she eats isn't any of my business, it's quite true. But it is absolutely my business when the general population becomes more and more confused about what the term 'vegetarian' means. Are sweets with gelatine in them okay? Is chicken stock okay? What about beef fat? Rennet in cheese (from a calf's stomach lining)? Turkey only on Christmas Day? What about organic meat? Or meat sometimes?

I'm here to tell everyone that none of the above foods are vegetarian. Plainly and simply, if a food comes from the flesh of an animal - no matter what that animal happens to be - then the food in question is not, and never has been, vegetarian. No matter how often a person eats meat or what animal that meat comes from, if they do so they are not a vegetarian.

While I'm on the subject, there is no such thing as a pollo-vegetarian, or a pesco-vegetarian, or a porco-vegetarian. If you eat meat or animal flesh of any sort, the title of 'vegetarian' does not apply to you. It never did, and it never will.

So what should a fish-eater call themselves? How should they explain their dietary preference? The term that seems to be taking over and becoming increasingly familiar is simple - pescatarian. Nice and simple, and easy to understand.

In the meanwhile, leave the title 'vegetarian' to those who deserve and have earned it - to those of us who respect all animal life enough to refuse to eat it."
Later bitches.

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#24 Postby bronco » Mon Sep 04, 2006 4:50 am

veganbuilder wrote:It's true that Vegans are more prone to strokes and heart attacks, though.

Source for that?

Also, diabetics need meat, there is no way around it. Instead of attacking this guy, let's just say there are some people who cannot do without meat. it's a fact.

Source for that?

It's alright to eat meat once in a while, even for a vegan.

No, it's not alright, regardless of if you call yourself vegan or not. And if you eat meat every once in a while I wouldn't call you a vegan.

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#25 Postby MontanaVegan » Mon Sep 04, 2006 5:24 am

veganbuilder wrote:It's true that Vegans are more prone to strokes and heart attacks, though.


Was your post intended to just stir up the vegans? :)
Kind of like poking the sleeping grizzly bear, "let's see what he does"
If not:

Dr. Ornish and Dr. Esselstyn - heartattackproof.com - are famous for reversing heart disease with vegan diets.
No meat based diet has ever stopped or reversed heart disease.
A vegan diet is the only cure for heart disease.
Drugs and surgery aren't cures even if they can extent a life.

Nobody needs meat. Not even diabetics

The Standard American Diet is usually the cause of diabetes.
Most people blame the carbs, so they think meat, which is carbless, is the answer.
More than 50% of the calories consumed in the USA are refined carbs.
Refined carbs = garbage.
Only 7% of the calories consumed in the USA are from whole plant foods.
A whole food vegan diet can cure diabetes. A junkfood vegan diet, probably won't help much.

It may not be too health dangerous to eat meat once in a while.
But it's definitely not vegan.
Our bodies can take an incredible amount of abuse and still survive.
Turned Vegan and started lifting weights in the spring of 2006 - Age 42

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#26 Postby veganbuilder » Mon Sep 04, 2006 8:59 am

I'll respond to the specifics later on, but for now, suffice it to say some people just can't add muscle without meat. It's certainly true, and please don't ask for references. Experience is the best teacher. :D Some people have bodies which are so extremely soft and fragile it's impossible to build strong, hard muscles without some meat. It's my personal experience. After giving up meat, I am finding it hard to bulk. Also, you must eat a LOT if you're veggie because of the small quantity of proteins, carbs, fibers in veggie items. These are the obvious disadvantages.

Out of curiosity, why are you guys vegans? Is it from a health perspective, or on account of ethical considerations, like you dont wanna hurt animals? For me, it's the latter. The bible and other holy books, however, clearly encourage meat-eating, so it wouldn't be spiritually wrong, I suppose. 8)

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#27 Postby CollegeB » Mon Sep 04, 2006 10:20 am

how many people do you know have gone vegan, couldnt put on muscle then began to eat meat and really just got huge?

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#28 Postby MontanaVegan » Mon Sep 04, 2006 10:26 am

I agree that meat, and maybe even to a greater degree dairy, is good muscle building food.
I've wondered how much of it is from the natural flesh or the unnatural stuff we pump into our animals.
Milk is designed to grow a baby cow very fast, so even organic dairy probably grows human muscle faster.
But eating meat and milk causes so many health problems. And suffering.

I don't have any personal experiences of lifting while eating meat.
I started lifting after I started eating vegan.
I've had steady improvements since I started.
You are right, Veggies do need to eat a LOT.
3 pounds of broccoli has only a few more calories than 1/4 pound of beef
Legumes and grains have closer calorie and protein characteristics to meat.

I began eating a vegan diet for personal health.
But I am glad that the animals and environment benefit from my new lifestyle
Turned Vegan and started lifting weights in the spring of 2006 - Age 42

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#29 Postby FormicaLinoleum » Mon Sep 04, 2006 10:30 am

veganbuilder wrote:It's certainly true, and please don't ask for references.

I don't think that's going to convince anyone! References are necessary.

As for diabetics needing meat:
http://care.diabetesjournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/29/8/1777

veganbuilder wrote:Also, you must eat a LOT if you're veggie because of the small quantity of proteins, carbs, fibers in veggie items.

Are you suggesting that animal products have more carbs and fiber than veggies do??
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#30 Postby Kathryn » Mon Sep 04, 2006 10:37 am

veganbuilder wrote:It's true that Vegans are more prone to strokes and heart attacks, though.


If vegans are more prone to heart attacks/strokes, it's most likely because of elevated homocysteine levels, which are tied to low levels of B12. The 'solution' is not to eat animal products, but to be sure to take a vegan B12 supplement.

veganbuilder wrote:It's alright to eat meat once in a while, even for a vegan.


:shock: I certainly wouldn't call that person a "vegan," more like a 'flexitarian" (PC term for people who just want to eat whatever, whenever! :roll: ) And, please, if YOU are doing this, DON'T call yourself a vegan (or even a vegetarian).


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