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PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2005 10:43 am 
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Rabbit
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That's really cool, man. I hope I didn't put you on the spot.

It takes a lot to challenge and overcome long-held philosophies. I know a lot of people who seem to agree with veganism, but because of how they were raised or because they've been eating meat for so long, they can't seem to readjust their lifestyle.

As far as "animal rights," it might just be a semantical thing. Admittedly, it sounds a little silly, as if animals will soon be granted the right to vote or something. There are so many ways to approach the ethical necessity of vegetarianism, but in the end, I think it's a simple as shedding a little mercy to the least of us. And certainly not killing is better than killing, so on that basis alone - with a value judgment attached - I find it difficult to not recognize the ethical aspect of the lifestyle.

Vegetarian or not, though, we're glad to have you here!


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 Post subject: B12 - Easy to get than most believe!
PostPosted: Sun Aug 14, 2005 12:35 am 
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This is an interesting thread for me, because my brother and I, (we are both vegan) were discussing the whole B12 issue. I think just like all vitamins it is essential for human health. However, I think the issue has been overemphasized in the vegan community and was mainly just propagated by people who were looking for things to find "wrong" or "unnatural" about the vegan diet. Those same people would say that B12 can't be found directly in plant foods, so for vegans the vitamin would have to be supplemented...so how natural is the vegan diet if those following it have to by synthetic supplements to maintain health? (that is the connection people looking to dispell the vegan diet make time and time again) Therefore, I feel that when people claim B12 absolutely must be supplemented, they are doing a disservice to the vegan diet. If our diet cannot be sustained simply by eating what God has provided in nature, without any refinement by human hands, that it cannot be man's intended diet. Otherwise we'd be defying the laws on nature. I definitely don't think that we are defying the laws of nature living this diet. I think we are truly eating man's intended diet and nature, in its natural state will sustain us. Some studies I have seen state exactly as DayWalker said in his posting, an adequete B12 amount can be found simply by eating unwashed, organic fruits and vegetables. (And I thought I was the only one who has ever heard that concept.) I have an organic garden at my house and I get much satisfication and nourishment just by trying to eat some of the foods raw, right of the vine. Besides, thoroughly washing foods starts to take away some of the nutrients off the skin as you start to "exfoliate" the fruit or vegetable. I have also heard that the amount of B12 we require in our diets is so minimal. For many of us who haven't been vegan our entire lives, we are still with more than enough of the vitamin in our bodies from our days of consuming animal products. I have read that B12 is stored in the body for long periods of time and that further makes the amount we need to ingest even more minimal. Think about it - if this vegan diet is so natural and so intended for us by the Creator himself, than why wouldn't we be able to find everything we need directly in nature?!!! Futhermore, B12 is fortified in so many of the vegan food today, soymilk and the like, that it is even less of an issue. But even so, I for one, will continue to believe that adequete B12 intake can be maintained by eating foods straight off the vine, right in nature itself!


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 Post subject: Re: B12 - Easy to get than most believe!
PostPosted: Sun Aug 14, 2005 6:23 am 
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I agree, DanDz.

The point is,
DanDz wrote:
so how natural is the vegan diet if those following it have to by synthetic supplements to maintain health?
I think we are truly eating man's intended diet and nature, in its natural state will sustain us.

The average vegan diet is far from being "natural". Soy cream, pudding, chocolate, vegan hot dogs etc. are refined food. Eating 100% raw, on the other hand, is not easy when you live in a city. The plants we harvest have not the same amount of nutritients as plants that grew in a jungle 1'000 years ago!
So, while i believe that a "natural" vegan diet wouldn't lead to malnutrification, i also think that nowadays it's better to supplement to be sure.
That doesn't imply that vegan is inferior to omnivore! When you eat the average omnivore diet, you also "have to" supplement, if not B12, it's Vit. C - or medicaments for your heart, blood pressure etc.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 14, 2005 9:46 am 
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Brendan wrote:
As far as "animal rights," it might just be a semantical thing. Admittedly, it sounds a little silly, as if animals will soon be granted the right to vote or something. There are so many ways to approach the ethical necessity of vegetarianism, but in the end, I think it's a simple as shedding a little mercy to the least of us. And certainly not killing is better than killing, so on that basis alone - with a value judgment attached - I find it difficult to not recognize the ethical aspect of the lifestyle.

I think you are right about semantics. Right now I am leaning toward the idea that animals do not have any intrinsic rights, but rather that animal rights are a human moral issue. This avoids the idea that animals could have a right to vote or that one animal could have a right not to be eaten by another animal, and places the burden on humans where it belongs. It is an issue that deals with the interaction between humans and animals. Something along the lines of "Animals are sentient beings and, therefore, cannot be owned by humans," or "The use of force against animals is justified only in retaliation and only against those animals that initiate force."

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Vitamin B12
DanDz wrote:
Think about it - if this vegan diet is so natural and so intended for us by the Creator himself, than why wouldn't we be able to find everything we need directly in nature?!!!

I am reading a book called The Paleolithic Prescription. The authors discuss recent discoveries in anthropology as well as study the diet of modern hunters and gatherers and conclude that modern fruits and vegetables have undergone 10,000 years of selective breeding by humans. As a result, humans have a lot fewer varieties to choose from and the ones that we do have contain less vitamins, minerals and fiber and more sugar than the foods that God intended us to eat. Wild einkorn wheat, for example, has 50% more protein than hard red winter wheat. They believe that B12 may have been a natural part of many foods and that it may even have been in the water supply. (This selective breeding continues. Many varieties of tomatoes are being selected so they change color sooner and remain hard longer... I had a tomato yesterday that was bright red on the outside and nice and soft, but it was green on the inside and tasted so bad I had to throw it away.)

Vitamin E
I think my problem with Vitamin E is that I am trying to lose weight, so I am currently not eating nuts and oils. So I plan to take a supplement until I reach my ideal body weight, then change my diet to increase the vitamin content.

By the way, I came across some interesting trivia concerning vitamin E. I found this under ethnic foods at http://www.nutritiondata.com/facts-001-02s068g.html
It turns out that 100g of raw, beluga whale eyeballs has 1870mg of vitamin E! Roughly 6233% of the RDA! That's fine, but I think to get it you should have to kill the whale with a hand-thrown harpoon from your kayak.[/i]

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 Post subject: Re: B12 - Easy to get than most believe!
PostPosted: Sun Aug 14, 2005 6:09 pm 
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DanDz wrote:
However, I think the issue has been overemphasized in the vegan community and was mainly just propagated by people who were looking for things to find "wrong" or "unnatural" about the vegan diet.


So? Do you really believe that both Vegan Outreach and renowned vegan physician Michael Klaper MD are anti-vegan? Did you read any of the info on their links that I posted?

Therefore, I feel that when people claim B12 absolutely must be supplemented, they are doing a disservice to the vegan diet. If our diet cannot be sustained simply by eating what God has provided in nature, without any refinement by human hands, that it cannot be man's intended diet.[/quote]

If it's not "man's intended diet", then it's no good? What if your theory is incorrect and the scientific evidence is right? Should we abandon veganism?

DanDz wrote:
Think about it - if this vegan diet is so natural and so intended for us by the Creator himself, than why wouldn't we be able to find everything we need directly in nature?!!!
:roll:

Should we also abandon clothing and shelter? Clearly if the creator had intended for us to have them, we wouldn't have to make them?

DanDz wrote:
But even so, I for one, will continue to believe that adequete B12 intake can be maintained by eating foods straight off the vine, right in nature itself!


I give up. :lol: We definitely have very different world views. I am more interested in science and theories that offer evidence and proof. Actually, I can see that you value evidence and proof too, just of a different kind than I do. The good thing is that we are all vegan, on that we can agree.

I even hope that you are right and we don't need any supliments. My friend Oak in Scotland has been raw food vegan for 10 years and does not supliment. He has his B12 levels tested regularly and they are fine. One person doesn't prove anything, but perhaps there is hope. Of course as Daywalker pointed out, the average vegan diet is far from "natural". How many times have most of us gone a day without eating any fruits or vegetables at all? :oops: Even when we find the time and money, most of us don't have access to fresh raw organic produce. :(


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 15, 2005 1:21 am 
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Michael Hobson, I do like what you have to say. I guess it is one of those cases where we just agree about what to disagree on, but most importantly we are in accordance concerning the important issues. You do turn to science for your backing, while I turn to God. I don't dismiss scientific theory, but I think God comes first, then science. There is no science without God. We do have different views on the issue, but we are still vegan bretheren, first and foremost...and that is what is important!

You asked, "If it's not "man's intended diet", then it's no good? What if your theory is incorrect and the scientific evidence is right? Should we abandon veganism? " I do think that if this is not God's intended diet for man, then I would absolutely abandon vegansim. I would do such because if the vegan diet was found to be deficient then it would be defying the laws of God and nature. However, I will not abandon the vegan diet because I think it is God's intended diet and to eat vegan is to follow the laws of nature. But, then it would still be an ethical issue, not as much as a nutritional one in that instance. There would still be the issue of animal abuse and slaughter, which are sins in the eyes of God. So perhaps if I found vegansim to be deficient nutrionally in its natural state, I would revert back to some form of lacto-vegetarian, but only drink milk from certain cows, raised, respected, and loved in certain ways. However, this diet still has so many flaws and ethical problems associated with it. So again, I would be brought back to veganism; following God's plan and God's diet.

Also, Daywalker made some great points. He said, "The average vegan diet is far from being "natural"." He went on to speak about the altered food substances most vegans eat, from soy ice creams to veggie dogs, to puddings. I think that notion brings us back to the point that we should all be striving to eat the highest quality foods possible. Like most vegans who don't eat 100% raw foods, I myself need to strive to get to that goal or close to it. We should all strive to incorporate a greater amount of raw foods into our diets. Daywalker your point that the current vegan diet eaten by many today is not totally "natural" does not fall on deaf ears. Your point is well taken. However, although most don't eat foods totally natural, I think the fact that the diet can sustain a human being in its natural state is the key point. Also, you are right about certain plants losing their nutritional value over time. This has been rapidly occuring over the last 100 years, as fruits and vegetables have been hybridized, genetically modified, and altered to no end. Not only have fruits lost nutrional value with each successive generation, but many people old enough to recall the taste of fruits in previous years claim that they have also lost taste. The only way around this seems to be to not buy genetically modified organisms (GMO's) and search for organic, heirloom varieties. They are harder to find and probably cost a little more, but are worth it in the end.

Lastly, we all can only do our best to live vegan and healthy in today's world. We cannot divorce ourselves from this world, this society, and this life so we must make consolations. For example, allthough we cannot always buy organic, we should still remember we are at least buying some sort of fruit, rather than some sugar sweet. We live in a very "unnatural" world today, but the vegan diet still stands out among the rest as the most "natural." It is the most natural diet and that is why I will continue to follow it.


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 Post subject: Re: Vegan Sources for Vitamins E and B12?
PostPosted: Mon Aug 15, 2005 5:49 am 
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sirdle wrote:
And I can't get any Vitamin B12. Are there any vegan sources of B12 other than supplements?



I'd be interested in that matter too. I don't take vitamin supplements but in some soymilk one can find b12.

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 Post subject: Re: B12 - Easy to get than most believe!
PostPosted: Mon Aug 15, 2005 5:52 am 
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Daywalker wrote:
That doesn't imply that vegan is inferior to omnivore! When you eat the average omnivore diet, you also "have to" supplement, if not B12, it's Vit. C - or medicaments for your heart, blood pressure etc.


Exactly. That's the point! Normal people have to take vitamin supplements too. They often get less vitamins than vegans already eat with their food.

_________________
VEGAN COOKING ON YOUTUBE!
http://www.youtube.com/AttilaHildmannTV
http://www.youtube.com/TheFreshVegan
http://www.attilahildmann.com


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 15, 2005 8:44 am 
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Elephant
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DanDz wrote:
We do have different views on the issue, but we are still vegan bretheren, first and foremost...and that is what is important!


Agreed! :D I appreciate your point of view Dan, glad to have you on the board.

I only have one final thought on B12. I hope that all of us in our outreach work will make sure new vegans get as much information as possible. Everyone should have the opportunity to make an informed decision on such an important health issue. :wink:


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2005 6:45 pm 
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michaelhobson wrote:

I surely wouldn't count on dirty vegetables for B12!!!

.


:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

I dont think Daywalker would either!!! :lol: :lol: :lol: :wink: 8)


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2005 6:49 pm 
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CollegeB wrote:
Nat where did you read far too many vegans have a deficiency, and that veganism is not a natural diet? .


I think Michael is the one who mentions this. Hard to keep track sometimes of who is saying what I know. I have made an error or two myself lately (sorry guys).!! :roll: :oops:

Anyway, Sirdle, I get my B12 by drinking shakes using soymilk. Fortified soymilk offers about 50% of your daily requirements in only one glass.

Not sure about B6 though. :?

And I commend your efforts to transition to veganism in an informed, educated, well researched manner. You will be in a greata position soon to educate others on healthy veganism!!! You rock 8) .

And I am dying to see how much you have changed since that picture of yours.


P.S. I hope your neice's veg*nism is going well and is being supproted and encouraged by her parents!!


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 Post subject: Re: Vegan Sources for Vitamins E and B12?
PostPosted: Thu Aug 25, 2005 1:23 am 
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sirdle wrote:

And I can't get any Vitamin B12. Are there any vegan sources of B12 other than supplements?

Thanks


Do not depend on any plants for B12. (Esp. miso, tempeh, etc..)

Use Red Star Nutritional Yeast, make sure it's the one with B12.

Hope this helps.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 29, 2005 1:34 am 
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Thanks, Nat. My soymilk doesn't have any B12 in it :( , but it is not-fat, which is what I need right now. And my Vitamin E is low by about 50%, because I am not eating any oils or nuts. So, for the time being I am taking a daily supplement and all is well. :) .

Did I say my niece is vegan? I meant she was vegetarian. With 3 daughters and 2 working parents, the vegan routine would be too much for my brother and sister-in-law to handle right now. But my niece is only 11, and as she grows, she and I will learn together. Soon, we may be able to help the entire family learn, grow, and change :wink: .

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As long as men massacre animals, they will kill each other. Indeed, he who sows the seeds of murder and pain cannot reap the joy of love --- Leonardo Da Vinci


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