Vegan Bodybuilding & Fitness

Healthy Food Defines You
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2007 12:13 am 
I actually think the ratio is the most important. The problem is I don't think anyone really knows the perfect ratio and the ratios are probably a bit different for everyone. I doubt they differ dramatically but maybe noticably. I think the problem is that we determined the perfect profile from what made rats grow the most in a lab...not from testing humans. Obviously humans aren't rats. For all I know maybe we are just like rats but I highly doubt it. I honestly can't believe a true study hasn't been done on this yet. But the industry is set on its ways and knows where the profit margins are so I don't see them rushing to find out anytime soon. I also think its likely that different amino acid profiles may be great for getting huge but may limit lifespan while others are best for health.
In the tortoise breeding industry(I used to want to be a herpetologist and cruel reptile breeder in my pre vegan days) young animals(in species that tend to be over 100lbs that eat a purely plant based diet...not ones that eat bugs) are fed cat food instead of the veggies they've evolved to eat. Doing this makes them grow 30-50% faster but most of them don't live past 10 years of age(most that size live well over 70 and most should live to be well over 100 without predators). With this...the biologists would assume the amino acid profile of catfood would be optimal for them(since growth means health to these morons)...but thats plain moronic. Of course they should be eating exactly what they were designed to eat...plants!!!


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2007 12:39 am 
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Gorilla
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any idea on what factors determine the rate at which different proteins are digested? Ex. Whey is said to be digested very rapidly, and casein is digested much slower... what makeup of the protein determines this?

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2007 2:22 am 
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Troy wrote:
Since you can design your own protein powder at True Protein I thought it would be fun to see if I could play with the ratios and see if I could adjust the amino acid profile of a mixed protein using Gemma/Hemp/Soy. I set it up on Excel and have been tinkering with percentages of the proteins to come up with better a profile. Trouble is, I don't know what the ideal amino acid profile is for building muscle and can't find it anywhere on the net.


If you figured that out, and came up with the ideal protein powder ratio for building muscle, that would be kinda amazing.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2007 3:18 am 
Troy wrote:
any idea on what factors determine the rate at which different proteins are digested? Ex. Whey is said to be digested very rapidly, and casein is digested much slower... what makeup of the protein determines this?


I think what you've been eating has a lot to do with this. And honestly I think carbs have a lot to do with this too. If you have a good base of stored carbs I can imagine protein digestion is much easier as most involuntary processes the body takes part in requires sugar in order to function properly...especially since protein is the hardest thing to digests. This is one of the reasons why I think its so hard to gain muscle if your lean...and also why bodybuilders lose muscle while cutting(but of course they need to cut). As for whey being digested quickly in itself I have no idea why that is but it can be related to the fact that whey does have some carbs attatched to hit. Moreso than casein.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2007 5:40 am 
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Manatee
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Quote:
I actually think the ratio is the most important. The problem is I don't think anyone really knows the perfect ratio and the ratios are probably a bit different for everyone.


I definitely agree with Potter here about the ratios being more important than the total amino sum. His point about what's healthiest vs. what makes you grow fastest is another good point.

It's pretty common knowledge around here that it's healthiest to eat a wide variety of foods, so in the past I have applied this to my protein supplementation. Using a bunch of different types of protein (soy,rice,hemp,pea,etc.) may not yield an amino profile similar to whey isolate, but I always reasoned that getting protein from a bunch of different sources is probably more healthy that getting it from just one or two.

But getting back to the whole amino acid ratio thing; I actually did a small comparison of just the "BCAAs" in various protein sources the other day in another post here (some of this is copied from there):

30g Manitoba Hemp Protein:

L-Leucine: 828mg
L-Isoleucine: 492mg
L-Valine: 609mg

30g TP Soy Isolate:

L-Leucine: 2130mg
L-Isoleucine: 1230mg
L-Valine: 1320mg

30g Nutribiotic Rice Protein:

L-Leucine: 1996mg
L-Isoleucine: 1056mg
L-Valine: 1420mg

30g Gemma:

L-Leucine: 2610mg
L-Isoleucine: 1410mg
L-Valine: 1560mg

30g TP Ion Exchange Whey Isolate:

L-Leucine: 3450mg
L-Isoleucine: 2460mg
L-Valine: 2070mg

5g ON BCAA powder:

L-Leucine: 2500mg
L-Isoleucine: 1250mg
L-Valine: 1250mg

Please note that the 'ON BCAA powder" totals are for a 5g serving, not the 30g "serving size" included for the other proteins. Sorry I didn't make a chart like Troy did, but it's late and I'm using a calculator so you might even want to check these calculations... :wink:

In terms of finding the ideal ratios of aminos, I am inclined to begin the experiment by concentrating on these three (L-Isoleucine, L-Leucine, L-Valine). I have been toying with this concept for a few weeks, and when I looked at Troy's excel spreadsheed, I noticed that Whey Isolate is pretty high in these three amino acids, relative to the usual "vegan" protein supplements I take.

What I am thinking is that a mix of various protein (gemma,hemp,rice,soy), supplemented with a small amount of BCAA to bring the three "BCAAs" into the range of Whey Isolate... would still allow me to consume "varied sources of protein", but would yield an amino profile (for these three particular aminos) similar to the Whey Isolate.

Am I just crazy, or does this seem like a good place to start???

-Chris


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2007 9:26 am 
I think for now getting a good balance is definitely the right way to go but in reality it wouldn't suprise me one if there are a few amino acids(the ones that are considered essential) that our bodies shouldn't have any of at all. However I'm not gonna play the game of avoiding one or a few specific ones but for all we know some of them may really impede our body function or worse yet...make us more likely to get cancer and die young. Its really hard to say until a true study is done.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2007 9:30 am 
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Manatee

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I was always under the impression that hemp protein was the best source of vegan protein out there, just as good as whey.

It looks like it is in fact much lower in protein. I'm not so sure I want to pay the high price for hemp any more.

Gemma is not available in the UK either I don't think?!?


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2007 9:42 am 
That doesn't mean much of anything unless your just trying to get bang for your buck. If you are go soy isolate. We're talking ideal ratios which nobody can really determine...we're not talking about total.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2007 11:46 am 
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Gorilla
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Chris, I don't think its possible to start with just three aminos and work your way outward. I think you really have to encompass the group as a whole and deal with the ratios. This could be a very tedius task as we have 18 different aminos, making up 18 different percentages to take into account. I wish I was crafty enough to write a program to figure that out, as it is simple mathematics that could give you the proper percentages of each protein to give you the closest amino acid ratio that you desired, whether that be Ion Exchanged Whey Isolate or some other profile.

Now I do have a debate to bring up... since the consensus believes that variety is key with regards to the amino acid ratio and we all agree that you don't need to consume "complete" proteins at every meal because our body stores a pool, right? My counter point is this... regardless if you feed your body different types of protein throughout the day, in the end, you are still getting a combined specified ratio of amino acids. Such as the case here:

If every day you consume 25% Gemma, 25% Rice, 25% Hemp, and 25% Soy... your amino acid profile percentages would be this...

Alanine 10.2%
Arginine 8.3%
Aspartic Acid 10.0%
Cystine 1.4%
Glutamic Acid 17.2%
Glycine 3.8%
Histidine 2.3%
Isoleucine 4.1%
Leucine 7.5%
Lysine 5.2%
Methionine 1.7%
Phenylalanine 4.8%
Proline 4.3%
Serine 4.7%
Threonine 3.4%
Tryptophan 2.3%
Tyrosine 3.8%
Valine 4.9%

I can understand the concept of eating a variety of other foods, grains, veggies, fruits, fats... because they all have different nutrients... ie. vitamins, minerals, types of sugars, phytonutrients, chains of fats, etc., etc., etc.... but when we are talking about protein powders, we aren't talking about micronutrients, we are dealing strictly with the macro protein and building blocks of it. This is why I may sway to disagree with supplementing with a wide variety of sources of protein powders unless each day you use different ratios of different powders day in and day out, but like I said, if you use the same powders, in the same ratios, every day, its the same as using one protein powder, is it not? My thoughts to easily maximize protein diversity would be to pick a single different protein to consume each day... "cycling protein" would be a good phrase for it. Like Hemp on Monday, Gemma on Tuesday, etc... Then maybe combining two a day for awhile, or three a day and then back to one a day...

OK, lets say (just for kicks), that Whey Isolate Ion Exchange IS the "$hit" for ideal AA ratios. Here is the breakdown of ratios for it:

Alanine 5.0%
Arginine 2.1%
Aspartic Acid 9.8%
Cystine 1.7%
Glutamic Acid 18.6%
Glycine 1.1%
Histidine 1.1%
Isoleucine 7.2%
Leucine 10.2%
Lysine 9.3%
Methionine 2.4%
Phenylalanine 2.7%
Proline 6.4%
Serine 4.2%
Threonine 7.0%
Tryptophan 2.0%
Tyrosine 3.0%
Valine 6.1%

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Last edited by Troy on Sun Dec 09, 2007 1:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2007 1:18 pm 
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I hope that some of our questions regarding the best amino acid profile will be answered in this book: http://www.amazon.com/Amino-Acids-Prote ... 1420043803

It's the second edition and focuses on bodybuilders and powerlifters, supposedly. I have not yet ordered it but will be doing so soon.

Troy,
Thanks for putting together the comparative analysis. I've done it myself but never on an easy-to-read spreadsheet. Nice work.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2007 1:36 pm 
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Gorilla
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DV wrote:
I hope that some of our questions regarding the best amino acid profile will be answered in this book: http://www.amazon.com/Amino-Acids-Prote ... 1420043803

It's the second edition and focuses on bodybuilders and powerlifters, supposedly. I have not yet ordered it but will be doing so soon.

Troy,
Thanks for putting together the comparative analysis. I've done it myself but never on an easy-to-read spreadsheet. Nice work.


Good find DV, I'll have to check Borders or Barnes and Noble and sit and give it a read someday... I don't have an extra hundo sittin around to spend on the book, but I wish I did... I really wanna read it.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2007 1:48 pm 
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I just ordered it and it's now out of stock for awhile. Unfortunately, the price probably won't drop, even for the used books. Since it appears to not be written for the average lay person, I doubt it will come out in paperback. I tried finding the 1st edition in our library (which is huge here) but had no luck. Maybe a university with a sports medicine program or exercise physiology program would carry it.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2007 1:56 pm 
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Gorilla
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I'm going to check with my alma mater, University of Wisconsin La Crosse, they have a great Exercise and Sports Science Program with emphasis on Fitness and Athletic Training... the only downfall I see is that the book was written 10 years ago, do you think that makes a difference as far as progress in the field... either way, I think it will be a great read, Lucky..! I will be expecting a full review! :wink:

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Last edited by Troy on Sun Dec 09, 2007 2:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2007 2:19 pm 
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cool post - thanks.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2007 3:13 pm 
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Troy,

The 1st edition was written in 1997 but the 2nd edition (which I linked to) was published November 30, 2007. I held off on purchasing the 1st edition when I found out a new one was in the works. You might only find the 1st edition on any library shelves at this time. I wonder if any programs use this as a textbook?


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