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PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 2:37 am 
I think its safe to say a 200lbs man needs little more than 30g for normal body function. He would very likely lose muscle mass and eventually dwindle down to a very thin but healthy state(with a few grams over that), but normal body function wouldn't suffer so long as he didn't tax his body. The rest of the protein should go to muscle repair and growth. If you have 100g going to muscle growth and repair you'd think you'd gain 50g of muscle a day(thats minus water) which very few people actually do for extended periods of time. And many people eat way way more than that...so why aren't they gaining way more.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 6:29 pm 
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:idea:

Troy wrote:
Harley wrote:
I have only one thing to say XTEND


I'd like to take an interesting spin on this post... I found XTEND and was curious to see that the description states: "scientific blend of Energy Aminos consisting of the proven 2:1:1 ratio of Branched Chain Amino Acids (L-Leucine, L-Isoleucine and L-Valine)"

I have never read about the proven 2:1:1 ratio and am curious about this study, so I used googs and found that interestingly enough,True Protein notes the sources of the studies conducted regarding the 2:1:1 ratio or so it seems that way. Also...
Optimum also makes a 2:1:1 amino acid product.
Primaforce's 2:1:1 Product
Universal Nutrition has 2:1:1 BCAA product
[url=http://www.jarrow.com/product-56]Jarrow's
2:1:1 BCAA product[/url]
Axis Labs 2:1:1 Ethyl Ester BCAA product
And I'm sure there is probably others as I have never supplemented BCAAs...


...so continuing from a thread that sparked my idea... and applying it to this topic... I thought which protein powder's amino acid profile came closest to the 2:1:1 (Leucine, Isoleucine and Valine) ratio... here are the results... and I think my calculations are correct...

Image

To me, it looks like Gemma comes closest to the 2:1:1 "proven" ratio, does it not? And it seems Whey Isolate is furthest from this ratio. Maybe this is meaningless in relation to each days pool of aminos (as this is not the only source of protein for anyone) but as a single protein I feel its at least worth noting... comments...?

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 6:49 pm 
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Protein shmotein.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 6:51 pm 
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veggieprincess wrote:
Troy,

I think true protein needs to start paying us for how much free advertising we give them on this site.

Hey, pure protein sources at an affordable price, available in a food grade bag so I don't have to hurt the environment with plastic containers, create your own flavor combinations.... really, what more could you ask ;)

p.s. thanks for putting this chart together - very helpful. When I'm rich and famous I'm gonna hire you (or maybe you'll get there first, we'll see, ha, ha)


Your welcome :) And yeah, I think I'm gonna stop by their forum and see if theres anything else like that what I've done over there... BTW, A little extra cash never hurt me so just let me know... :wink:

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2007 3:30 am 
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LongTimeVegan wrote:
Quote:
In terms of finding the ideal ratios of aminos, I am inclined to begin the experiment by concentrating on these three (L-Isoleucine, L-Leucine, L-Valine).

Troy wrote:
Quote:
I don't think its possible to start with just three aminos and work your way outward. I think you really have to encompass the group as a whole and deal with the ratios.

Troy- I see you've changed your mind about my "L-Isoleucine, L-Leucine, L-Valine" suggestion... :D Welcome to the dark side...

I wasn't able to open the excel file you sent due to compatability issues. This turned out to be a good thing, because in making my own version of the "Protein Calculator" I came upon something interesting...

We are comparing ratios of amino acids in various proteins based upon the amount of aminos present in a 100g sample. This is flawed methodology, because some proteins contain 100g aminos per 100g sample, while others contain considerably less than that. For those that might have trouble wrapping their head around this, consider the following:

In order to get 100g of Amino Acids from Hemp Protein, you will need approximately 233g of product.

In order to get 100g of Amino Acids from Rice Protein, you will need approximately 125g of product.

I have created "coefficients" for each of the protein powders we are discussing, which serve to correct this inaccuracy. :D :D :D

The first table is basically the same as the one you originally posted. Listed below it are the "coefficients" that correspond to each protein type. I have used these coefficients to create a new comparison, which appears below the original chart. In this new chart we can compare the various proteins without bias that was present before.

Image
By longtimevegan at 2007-12-19

Image
By longtimevegan at 2007-12-19

As you can see, the new table is drastically different from the original. Of course Hemp and Rice look deficient in the first table, because we are comparing 42.9g Hemp Aminos, and 80g. Rice Aminos, to 100g of Gemma Aminos. :wink:

Of course this means that once you find that ideal amino ratio, you then have to use these coefficients again to calculate the actual weight of product that is required of each type of protein to obtain your desired amino ratio.

Another nice thing about the coefficients is that they correct for the fact that Gemma and the Whey Proteins add up to over 100g Aminos per 100g Sample in the original chart. This is obviously not the case, and these seems like the most accurate way to fix that.

All this data comes from an Excel based "Protein Calculator" I am working on that is very similar to the one Troy made. As soon as it is ready for public consumption I will gladly distribute it to anyone who is interested. :D

-Chris


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2007 12:28 pm 
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LongTimeVegan wrote:
LongTimeVegan wrote:
Quote:
In terms of finding the ideal ratios of aminos, I am inclined to begin the experiment by concentrating on these three (L-Isoleucine, L-Leucine, L-Valine).

Troy wrote:
Quote:
I don't think its possible to start with just three aminos and work your way outward. I think you really have to encompass the group as a whole and deal with the ratios.


Touche! Yeah, I didn't know the combination that you had refered to was so prevalent among amino acid supplements.


LongTimeVegan wrote:
This is flawed methodology, because some proteins contain 100g aminos per 100g sample, while others contain considerably less than that.


The flaw is with the original intent, as it was to show the total amount of amino acids for each protein in a given 100 gram sample. Equaling out the protein content playing field with equal samples is assuming that most people want to do more with less... as in, why consume 100g of something when you get the same protein content from just 50g of something else, at least this is the typical mindset. The new table is equaling out the amino acid profile playing field which makes it easier (I think) to finding an ideal AA profile, which noone knows, yet still cool to try and figure out. Yet I'd like to see a 2:1:1 protein combination just for kicks....!? Somebody crunch the numbers!

LongTimeVegan wrote:
I have created "coefficients" for each of the protein powders we are discussing, which serve to correct this inaccuracy.


I wouldn't say that the table I created is inaccurate, as the amino acid profile percentages remain constant. Nothing about the percentages has changed, you have simply made it easier to adjust the numbers to find an ideal ratio, at least it appears that way. The use of coefficients you derived is excellent and a step in the right direction toward an ideal amino acid profile.

LongTimeVegan wrote:
Another nice thing about the coefficients is that they correct for the fact that Gemma and the Whey Proteins add up to over 100g Aminos per 100g Sample in the original chart. This is obviously not the case, and these seems like the most accurate way to fix that.


This requires some explaining. In very small letters of my original post, I mention this and it has yet been addressed. I hope someone can address this question.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2007 12:37 pm 
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TheLeetOne wrote:
... but in lack of such a guideline I've been assuming that a combination of 4:3:2 ratio of hemp:rice:pea protein powder is 'ideal' based on the book 'The Thrive Diet' by Brendan Brazier. In the book he vaguely and indirectly mentions his experiments with finding an ideal AA profile lead him to believe that these three together in a similar ratio (I'll have to double-check the ratio, as it's been awhile since I read through the book) formed an exceptional AA profile....


LongTimeVegan wrote:
...As you can see, the new table is drastically different from the original. Of course Hemp and Rice look deficient in the first table, because we are comparing 42.9g Hemp Aminos, and 80g. Rice Aminos, to 100g of Gemma Aminos...


I'm glad you brought this up, Chris, because I was trying to find a good way to explain this myself :P

This also helps explain why the "exceptional" amino acid profile that Brendan Brazier refers to includes the ratio of protein powders that it does... now if only I knew the reasoning that made him believe it to be 'exceptional' I'd feel pretty good about combining the hemp, rice, and pea as he does. It seems like with the combination of hemp and rice that I currently take, I get a healthy abundance of most aminos... but the addition of pea protein to the mix would definitely balance things out more, for instance I would be getting more lysine (which hemp and rice don't contain a huge amount of). This ratio also seems to make sense for someone taking primarily pea (gemma) protein, as the addition of hemp and rice would improve their tryptophan intake.

I'm starting to think there may be some merit to his recommended combination. :P

Here is what the amino acid profile of the 4:3:2 pea:hemp:rice protein powders looks like:

Image

***NOTE: I've just realized I made a crucial error when compiling the data on this protein combination. I did my calculations based on a 4:3:2 ratio by WEIGHT, when in fact the ratio I was looking for was by volume. I'll correct this table as soon as I have time.***

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Last edited by TheLeetOne on Wed Jan 09, 2008 2:21 pm, edited 4 times in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2007 1:09 pm 
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I have been wondering what Vega's amino acid profile looks like in comparison with this chart.

hint, hint... Oh Troy... up for another project the next time you are bored? :wink: :wink:


Oh, and I don't know where your thread is that asked about Quinoa Protein but I actually did find a company that has this at a natural pharmacy store I went to. Except when I looked at the label, I saw that Pea Protein was listed as the main ingredient even though they were listing it as Quinoa/Amaranth Protein. So who knows if it was 90% Pea and then they just through some Quinoa in there.

I'd like to see a Quinoa/Blue Green Algae protein. Ever since OregonIssac (I think that was his screenname, his post disappeared during that month it crashed) posted about the benefits of Blue Green Algae I've been looking into it, but again, all the supplements I've seen don't have enough actual protein extracted.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2007 1:24 pm 
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veggieprincess wrote:
I have been wondering what Vega's amino acid profile looks like in comparison with this chart...


I believe the three main proteins in Vega are hemp, rice, and pea; although there are many other ingredients containing small amounts of aminos. I'll see if I can find out the exact ratio of hemp, rice, and pea in Vega, but judging by his book 'The Thrive Diet' I'm guessing it'll be fairly similar to what I've done in the table in my last post.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2007 6:59 pm 
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Quote:
why consume 100g of something when you get the same protein content from just 50g of something else, at least this is the typical mindset.

I agree that this is the "typical" mindset. :? However, the progression of this thread seems to indicate that the consensus (you and me included) seems to agree; amino ratios are more important than total amino content. It logically follows that we should focus our efforts by concentrating on "amino-acid ratios", rather than "amino-acid content by weight". :D

From what I've gleaned from your personal nutrition plan, economy is not your primary concern, maximum health is. :wink: I have to give you credit... your diet has inspired me to include more fruit in my diet (blackberries, blueberries, etc.). I have even started putting Udo's with DHA in my smoothies and hummos. I used to use flax oil, but this seems like a way better product :D Thanks!!!
Quote:
I wouldn't say that the table I created is inaccurate, as the amino acid profile percentages remain constant. Nothing about the percentages has changed

I see your point about the ratios of each amino acid being the same within each protein in the original chart, however, one needs a calculator to compare one protein ratio to another. This is where the chart that compares amino-acid percentages really shines.

The bottom line for me is: If I have to consume a higher quantity of hemp/rice protein PRODUCT (by mass) in order to obtain a particular amino-ratio, I am ok with that. Additionally, I don't think the "extra" mass in the product is necessarily harmful. I am inclined to think that it is actually less harmful than consuming the more refined "isolate" type products. Yes it may cost more, but research has shown that excessive protein is not great for your longevity.

Ok, so we are all consuming excessive protein... :oops:

But I'd like to minimize that as much as possible. :wink: So for me personally, I would rather consume 200g of what I consider to be an "ideal" amino-acid ratio protein, than consume 250g. of a less expensive mix. Provided of course that it contains the same amount of aminos I consider to be important, but doesn't contain the others that I don't feel I need. :wink:

On a side note, Robert mentioned that he started taking NO Explode, which I took a quick look at. In addition to caffeine and Creatine-Ethy-Ester Malate, as well as a bunch of other random things, it contains the following amino acids: L-Arginine, L-Histidine, and L-Tyrosene... :D I was also looking around at the various other brands of Nitric Oxide products, and it seems as though they all contain some form of L-Arginine as their main ingredient. Please refer to the Arginine content of the vegan proteins in the Amino by Percentage chart and prepare to scratch your head. hmmmm....

It is very interesting that VIRTUALLY ALL OF THE VEGAN PROTEINS contain equal or greater concentrations of L-Arginine, L-Histidine, and L-Tyrosene by amino percentage than either of the whey products... :D :D :D

Now this could mean that these aminos are good things for all bodybuilders to supplement OR it could mean that bodybuilders consuming lots of whey (the majority) are deficient in these aminos as compared to us vegan cats, and therefore see great results when this deficiency is corrected... :D

I have a bunch of other crazy observations to discuss, but I haven't got the time right now!!! :wink:

-Chris


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2007 8:04 pm 
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LongTimeVegan wrote:
From what I've gleaned from your personal nutrition plan, economy is not your primary concern, maximum health is. Wink I have to give you credit... your diet has inspired me to include more fruit in my diet (blackberries, blueberries, etc.). I have even started putting Udo's with DHA in my smoothies and hummos. I used to use flax oil, but this seems like a way better product Very Happy Thanks!!!


Glad to hear you are adding the berries and Udo's DHA oil... I've recently added a few other fat sources to my diet but am still using about 3 Tablespoons of Udo a day. The other sources are Almonds, Walnuts, and Flaxseed. Adding some variety never hurts, I just found time to figure out the proper ratios of the 24 different smoothie recipes and get the macronutrient percentages correctly.

LongTimeVegan wrote:
But I'd like to minimize that as much as possible. Wink So for me personally, I would rather consume 200g of what I consider to be an "ideal" amino-acid ratio protein, than consume 250g. of a less expensive mix


Agreed :D Keep up the good work, I like your way of thinking on this topic. Regarding NO products I have included a lenghty article below regarding NO and arginine.... very interesting read, if you have the time.

NO and Arginine Scam

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2007 8:38 pm 
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As far as my protein of choice goes, I'm gonna give it up to Gemma as being the best all around protein so far. Closest 2:1:1 ratio of the muscle building aminos, plum full of aminos per gram of weight, and dirt cheap. Does anyone have anything bad to say about Gemma? Otherwise it gets my vote.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2007 10:42 pm 
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I'm posting a link to this book again because I just got it in the mail:

http://www.amazon.com/Amino-Acids-Prote ... 1420043803

It's pricey and definitely won't be easy to read for a lot of people. However, it looks like it could answer many of the questions asked in this thread. I've gotten through the first chapter and am impressed with the author's credentials as well as his referenced research. There's been a LOT of research in amino acids in the last decade.

If you can shell out the money for the book and are comfortable reading something that could be an exercise physiology program textbook - then I highly suggest you get it. I am looking forward to applying this research to my program.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 20, 2007 10:53 pm 
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DV wrote:
...

http://www.amazon.com/Amino-Acids-Prote ... 1420043803

....comfortable reading something that could be an exercise physiology program textbook - then I highly suggest you get it. I am looking forward to applying this research to my program.


Its been 10 years since I took Phys. of Ex. in college and I hardly remember a thing from the class. I think I'd be pretty comfortable reading it though. I'm anticipating your full review and if you care to shed light on this subject after reading it. Maybe a holiday present to myself... :)

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2007 1:41 pm 
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Okay, so I just re-read the section in the book about the optimal amino profile, and I was quite wrong about the combination he'd mentioned. I thought it was 3:2:1 Hemp:rice:pea, when in fact it was 4:3:2 pea:hemp:rice. The book says that this combo is not only complete, but "complimentary and synergistic" although it lacks a good explanation for this.

I've edited my previous post, and changed the table to show the amino profile of this new combo... it'd be nice if trueprotein.com started carrying a high-quality rice protein so I could order it premixed. ;)

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